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About rockpond

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    Mormon Libertarian

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  1. Just this past Saturday we had a GA (Elder Kevin Hathaway) at a meeting presided over by President Oaks tell parents that "We don't say, for example, that a person is gay. We say that a person struggles with same gender attraction." Given this ongoing instruction from our leaders we, as members of the church, should not be surprised in the least when our gay and lesbian young adults enter into opposite sex marriages. It's a natural outcome of our teachings.
  2. I like this encapsulation of the OP so I'm going to respond as well (and I think that @ALarson is addressing the OP in his comments). My thoughts on a functional view of Church leaders' tendency to make mistakes (and when I use the term Leaders in this post, I'll be referring to our 15 prophets, seers, and revelators): We should teach that the Leaders have made and do/will make mistakes. And that these mistakes are not just losing their temper when they stub their toe or having an impure thought but that mistakes are made in teachings, in doctrine, and in policy. That the idea of continuing revelation is that we continue to receive further light and knowledge to not only restore what was lost in the apostasy but to bring us to a full and complete understanding of the gospel and the plan of salvation. Since teaching that principle is only half the issue, we also need to show that we believe it through our actions. We need to work to create a culture where a church member can politely disagree with a Leader without having their recommend threatened, being released from their calling, ostracized, or marginalized.
  3. I just started reading it last night. Looking forward to it!
  4. I agree with your summation. @smac97 is touting the church's believe in prophetic fallibility but then describing how we, as members, should act as if he is infallible because of our covenants. And, @Ahab says that the man holding the calling of prophet is fallible but whenever he is acting as prophet then he is infallible. If church members have too high an expectation of the prophet, we should work to fix whatever it is in our culture and teachings that is creating that expectation.
  5. I didn’t suggest that it was anyone else’s interpolation so the natural assumption is that it was mine - the author of the post. But thanks for pointing out the obvious. The phrase “offender for a word” is incorrectly applied here as I have neither given nor taken offense. I called the language interesting as they placed their own work into a third person context. And I suggested what I felt would be more accurate.
  6. I think that's just a reference to the handbook which just has same-gender marriage in the list of things that qualify as apostasy. And, that definition of apostasy is in the section about when church discipline is mandatory. The wording that I find the most interesting is the beginning of that quote: "Previously, our handbook characterized..." WAIT! The handbook did this? Because I remember President Nelson saying that it came from countless meetings wherein the Lord's guidance was sought and President Monson approved their work indicating that the will of the Lord had been reached. Or something to that effect. It's odd that what President Nelson called a revelatory experience for the apostles and prophet is now something that they just happened to find in the handbook and needed to change. It should say: Previously, we characterized... or Previously, the Lord characterized same-gender marriage by a member as apostasy.
  7. When is he acting as a prophet? When he is standing behind a pulpit speaking, when he is representing the church, when he is publishing church policy, etc. Most members never hear from the man who sometimes acts as prophet (a description I find unsupported by church teachings, but I’ll go with it for this goofy discussion). So, what we’re talking about is, specifically, the times when he acts as a prophet. And at those times you are arguing that he is infallible. Now... do you understand why some members might come to see the prophet as infallible? I mean here you are arguing that whenever he is acting as prophet (which is all the time that we see him) he is infallible.
  8. Okay... so disagree with the prophet and lose blessings. Got it. Still wonder why some church members feel that they are taught that the prophet is infallible?
  9. The Fourteen Fundamentals talk was originally given in 1980. It was then reprised in October of 2010 by both Elder Costa and Elder Duncan. Joseph Smith's dictum was that the "prophet is only a prophet when acting as such". I'm only referring to the teachings, doctrines, and policies of our prophet when they are acting as prophet. So I believe that "the Church" uses the term prophet to describe the prophet whenever he is acting in his role. Which is pretty much all of the time that we see him, hear him, or read his words.
  10. I don't agree that being marginalized is an okay response from church members toward a fellow member who believes that the prophet wasn't speaking as a prophet at a given time. If it is okay for me to spiritually discern when the prophet is not speaking as a prophet than I ought not be punished and have my recommend taking away.
  11. I believe that (bolded part) but that isn't what the Fourteen Fundamentals teaches. Again, not what the Fourteen Fundamentals teaches. I"m speaking of what prophets formally teach, not referring to what President Nelson might tell you if you happened to sit next to him on a ski lift. Fourteen Fundamentals (which qualifies as scripture according to Brigham Young's criteria noted above) teaches that the prophet can speak on any matter at any time and we are bound to follow it. Your understanding of a prophet is more closely aligned with mine. But to return to the subject of the thread, as you read Fourteen Fundamentals in Following a Prophet (which is scripture) can you understand how some members might get the idea that the prophet is infallible?
  12. The Fourteen Fundamentals doesn't leave room for such discernment. It teaches that we are to obey every word from the prophet, that he can speak on any subject, and that if we reject him we suffer. You are offering a different version of the Fourteen Fundamentals... albeit one that I agree with... but not the one that was taught. And, my experience with the reality of the church is that any disagreement with the prophet ends up in your being marginalized.
  13. I'm not confused. Quoting directly from the Fourteen Fundamentals address: "Sixth: The prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the Lord” to give us scripture. Sometimes there are those who haggle over words. They might say the prophet gave us counsel but that we are not obligated to follow it unless he says it is a commandment. But the Lord says of the Prophet Joseph, “Thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you” (D&C 21:4; italics added). And speaking of taking counsel from the prophet, in D&C 108:1, the Lord states: “Verily thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant Lyman: Your sins are forgiven you, because you have obeyed my voice in coming up hither this morning to receive counsel of him whom I have appointed” (italics added). Said Brigham Young, “I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call scripture” (Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. [London: Latter-day Saints’ Book Depot], 13:95)." So it would appear that our presiding High Priest is always speaking as a prophet.
  14. Fundamental #14: The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the first presidency—follow them and be blessed; reject them and suffer. These statements from you seem contradictory to me. Am I to avoid being led entirely by another person. Or am I to be led by living prophet and first presidency with the warning that if I reject them I will suffer? If the answer is that I am supposed to seek confirmation from the Spirit regarding each teaching and that I am free to reject those which the Spirit does not confirm, than I agree. But that isn't the impression that the Fourteen Fundamentals gives.
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