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      Users, It has come to our attention that the contact us feature on the site is broken.  Please do not use this feature to contact board admins.  Please go through normal channels.  If you are ignored there then assume your request was denied. Also if you try to email us that email address is pretty much ignored.  Also don't contact us to complain, ask for favors, donations, or any other thing that you may think would annoy us.  Nemesis


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pogi last won the day on March 10

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About pogi

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    Lost my face in the fuzz

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  1. Yeah, I don't really care what your opinion is. I am willing to discuss reasons for your opinion, however. So far, the only reasons you have given is that "light is good" and "the truth shall set you free". Your best argument, so far, is that extreme authority is justification for extreme scrutiny and transparency. What I can't understand is why you are critically evaluating the Mormon church which you are not involved with, and which has no authority over you, while giving a pass to the governmental authority which directly affects you and the lives of all citizens. In other words, if your reasons are valid, then they should apply to the government too.
  2. Well, you don't believe in the church either, so your opinion as to how the church does its business doesn't carry much weight within the ranks. Thanks for sharing, but all I can say is, I strongly disagree. I assumed that your answer to the OP was in the tile of the thread - "Light is good". I don't understand your position then. Are you suggesting that you would answer in the negative to the OP? Are you saying that light is not always good. I don't understand why you think that privacy/secrecy is more dangerous inside Mormonism then within your own government. Your argument is that extreme authority is justification for extreme scrutiny and transparency. You should be more concerned about the transparency of your own government, which directly affects you as an authority, then you are about Mormonism which has no authority over you.
  3. So your answer is 'yes', you do believe that disciplinary counsels addressing cases of adultery and child/spousal abuse should be public. No regard for the privacy of the victims or the humiliation and shame of it all for the sinner? Here is how you framed it: No strawman, you seem to be redacting quite a bit from the OP. Now you seem to be saying that not EVERY organisation should be subject to light shinning on EVERY part of their doings. You seem to be more protective of the privacy of those organisations doings which you happen to be a part of and want to protect. Even within the church you recognize that there are church doings which should remain private, including "spiritual counsel" and confession. So, even you recognize that your stance of absolute transparency is unsustainable by even your own standards. P.S. Judges have the right to make trials non-public for several reasons, including to protect the privacy of victims (which are very common in church discipline cases). The church takes it a step further to protect the privacy of the sinner too - for obvious reasons that you seem to be insensitive to.
  4. Are you suggesting that adultery, child/spousal abuse, etc. should not be subject to church discipline unless it can be done in a public fashion? You believe that the only good reason for state secrets to be withheld is because not every US citizen is a covenant Christian?
  5. You can't be serious! Public shaming for very personal transgressions? No, some truths are better left private. You are right that all truth is bearable with Christ, the problem is that not all have Christ. Then you do believe that the US government should reveal all confidential information? Still curious as to how you would answer that.
  6. That is unfortunate that active members do not always practice what is preached, making it much more difficult for those who feel like they don't fit.
  7. I probably don't. What I mean is that 99% of spiritual self-reliance and potential for growth lies in the primary answers like prayer, scripture study, service, sacrifice, humility, charity, ordinances, repentance/atonement and forgiveness. I have frequently heard people complain that we only get milk at church. What church really gives us are the keys to the mysteries of heaven. They are given to us in our lap, but some people refuse to utilize them and instead want to be force fed by the opinions of others, and complain when other people are not feeding them enough. People often want more "meat" at church - the "deep doctrines" of the gospel. The reason they are "deep doctrines" is because they are poorly understood. I can be more profoundly edified in light and spiritually transformed through private prayer (primary answers) than any opinionated and heated discussion about the unknown doctrines which do not impact my immediate spiritual growth/life. While interesting topics, they are rarely applicable in developing my relationship with God. Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself. That is the meat of it all! That is the most profound and deep fountain of spiritual life and sustenance that exists. I have found through meditation that simplifying almost always leads to greater spiritual depths. We often become too distracted from the simple truths in our quest for more. Most of us have no clue what depths the primary answers provide. We only dip our toes and then complain that we want something bigger and better, without fully comprehending what we have. Slow down and simplify. In that respect, I view correlation and consolidation much like meditation. That is interesting how different our experiences can be.
  8. They just had a dang good bishop!
  9. Right, I am not arguing that only the President can receive revelation. We all can - not just priesthood holders either. However, our revelations are restricted to the jurisdiction over which we preside. I cannot receive a revelation for you, for example, but I can for my family. The Elders quorum president can receive revelation for his quorum, but he doesn't hold the keys to receive revelation for the high priests, etc. etc. all the way up the ladder to the president who holds all the keys over the jurisdiction of the entire church. While these passages do not specifically state the the "President" is the only one who can receive revelation for the church, both sections of the D&C are explicit that there will only be one person who can receive revelation for the church as a whole. Who could possibly be given authority to dictate revelation and commandment to the entire church (which includes the President), but the President? Oliver Cowdery once "commanded" Joseph to change the wording of a revelation, Joseph responded "by what authority do you command me?" Unless we have received keys over a specific jurisdiction, we have no authority to receive revelation for that jurisdiction. This is clearly how Joseph interpreted those D&C passages. He said: “It is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instructions for those in authority, higher than themselves” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007], 197–98).
  10. Talk about anything relating to the subject. You don't have to repeat the platitudes, you can ask questions and explore within the subject as you wish. If you think that removing correlation will remove condemnation and shunning for teaching contrary to popular belief, you are sorely mistaken. From reading about church meetings pre-correlation, there were all sorts of nasty public shammings, beyond anything we come close to seeing today. It is human nature to resist change and to find obscure and foreign ideas threatening. People commonly resist that kind of thing. Correlation is not responsible for the judgmental culture of the church, human nature is responsible for that. You will not be disfellowshiped or excommunicated for exploring ideas in church which are related to the topic, so long as you are not teaching such things as doctrine. I don't know what you mean. There is almost unlimited potential for spiritual growth and enlightenment within the correlated materials. The problem is that we often only think and talk about these things at church and neglect to actually apply the principles of spiritual self-reliance in our day to day lives. We often forget to search for God in our search for "truth". We neglect the most sacred and holy order of spirituality via prayer and personal scripture study and instead delve into the "deep" subject materials that provide absolutely zero spiritual sustenance. If you compare the contention, confusion, division, and hurt feelings on these open forums to the relative peace and harmony of church meetings, I think you will see that you are mistaken.
  11. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on interpretation. I don't think the Lord did leave it open to the Church. Only one person on Earth has all the priesthood keys necessary to guide and direct the church as a whole. Everyone else is limited to their individual jurisdictions. Verse 7 above makes it clear that there will only be one man, not any man, in the stead of Joseph Smith who holds the keys for the entire church. That is largely understood to be the President of the Church who holds the same keys as Peter - the President of his time. D&C 43 corroborates verse 7 that there will only be one appointed to receive revelations for the church and that no one else shall receive these keys except it be through Joseph. Collectively, the quorum of the 12 hold all the keys necessary to direct the church, so in the absence of the president they can collectively guide the church via revelation until another is appointed and ordained, via the quorum, with all the keys to direct the church.
  12. While I never had access to the records, I grew up in a North East Orem neighborhood, and I honestly suspect our activity rates were even higher than that. I knew our ward boundaries well as a deacon collecting fast offerings door-to-door. I only knew of 2 non-member families in the ward boundaries, and 3 inactive families. No joke! There are pockets in Utah valley that are highly concentrated with active LDS families. Our ward boundaries were very small because it was so concentrated.
  13. I don't see correlation as doing that though. In fact, there are correlated materials which confirm that not all truth comes through the presidency of the church. I think it is important to distinguish, as CV75 did, between group and individual learning. I think it important that the direction and teaching of the church be presided over by the First Presidency and counsel of the 12 who hold the keys and are the "watchmen" of the church. As Pres. Benson said, " "All men are entitled to inspiration, and various men are entitled to revelation for their particular assignment. But only one man stands as the Lord’s spokesman to the Church and the world, and he is the president of the Church.” This is confirmed in D&C 28. There is also this 1913 (pre-correlation as we know it) declaration which I think is relevant: I don't think this means that we have to accept all correlated material as our personal truth, and that there is no other truth, but I do think it prudent to not let every Hiram Page who has an "inspired" opinion to waste our time at church. I think it more wise to leave the inspired direction of church teachings up to the presiding authorities and let each individual branch off from there in their own pursuit of truth.
  14. Eternal life is explained both as a reward and a gift in the scriptures. On the one hand, passages like John 3:16, 4:10, and Rev. 22:17 say that eternal life is a free gift which is appropriated by faith alone. On the other hand, passages like Matthew 19:29, Romans 2:6-7, Galatians 6:8-9, and Philippians 2:12-13, say that eternal life is a reward for work done. Even you cannot deny that eternal life is at least in some sense a reward as it is conditional upon belief. You can't escape that without resting the scriptures. According to you, eternal life is a reward for belief. Therefore, it is not free in the sense that anyone can have it, but is conditional upon the work of believing. True belief leads to becoming reborn into a new man by grace. The new man leads to works by grace. Works lead to promised rewards, but this is all only possible by the gift of grace. I think 1 Corinthians 15:10 is a pretty good bridge for understanding the relationship between works/grace and reward/gift.
  15. Then open your mouth. The manuals are meant to be catalysts for discussion in church. We are not restricted to reading the manuals only. You really see it working that way? I think that is a naive vision. I see contention, confusion, dissension, division, the formation of -ites, and hurt feelings. We would lose focus of the simplicity of the gospel principles and become lost in the deep cloudy philosophies of men. That's what would happen if you remove the manuals and say it is a free-for-all to discuss whatever the heck you want. Church would become MDD - please no! Lets keep those avenues separate.