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About pogi

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    Lost my face in the fuzz

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  1. How would anyone have heard about him before Joseph discovered the records? His people were destroyed off the face of the earth. Ancient people are discovered all the time that no one had heard of before the discovery. Your line of logic leaves me scratching my head.
  2. Mormon was not even a Mormon...what's your point?
  3. Mormon Newsroom and Suicide

    Suicide rates among youth have doubled in the last decade nationwide. There are obviously lots of potential variables, but I think kids are becoming increasingly isolated from real human interaction, instead their social life is increasingly on-line where cyber bullying is rampant. It is so much easier to be a jerk online. Plus kids who are bullied can re-read hurtful comments over and over and over online (they don't go away) and collect them from different sources, which can paint a dreadful picture for an impressionable child who really cares about what other people think. I worry so much about my child who has albinism and how that might effect his social future with bullies. I know how mean kids can be to kids who look different.
  4. oops Women

    I really don't understand this mind-set. How are women any more "alienated" then men when it comes to initiatories? Men are equally in the dark as to what blessings women receive in initiatories, so why is this a woman's issue only? There is no oppression going on in the temple. It is not like there is going to be any inequity in the comprehensive endowment of all blessings throughout the eternities. In the end, aren't we all going to be priests and priestesses, kings and queens? Or is that difference of the sexes oppressive also? When it comes to differences, I think the why's do matter. What if it is God's will and there is good reason for the differences. Does that not matter? Would it not be careless to disregard the why's, thinking we know better? If there is no good reason for the difference and it is not God's will, then I agree, it should be changed. I don't even know what the differences are in the initiatory blessings, are they worse then the men's blessings, or just different?
  5. oops Women

    I don't think this is done to keep women in the dark, and I don't think it is so much that they "won't let women know..." as much as it a matter of lack of necessity or application to them, so there is no need to make it known. It is not like men know any better what promises/blessings are made to women during initiatories. It could be equally said that most men don't even know they are different than theirs. I didn't.
  6. Prove God herewith

    This is the point I made: This is what you said in response: That sounds nothing like what I was saying. It sounded to me like you are accusing me of suggesting that voices should be suppressed. That is indeed the opposite of what I was suggesting, which was this - that no voice or personal belief should be suppressed when it comes to making legislation in favor of the "reasonable, logical, and proven voices." No, you are not out. You can say that and not be excommunicated. Now, if you start using your voice as a tool to persuade others to leave the church because of the policy, and in repudiation of and opposition to long established teachings/doctrines, then you are on sandy ground. It is not always an easy line to draw, you are right. Intention, purpose, spirit, and context matters. That is what church courts are for.
  7. Prove God herewith

    What about my first point do you disagree with? Yes, if your teachings in church are in repudiation of, or in contradiction to, the church's established teachings then you can be excommunicated. I acknowledged that (teaching your opinion as doctrine or TRUTH). However, you will not be excommunicated for having an opinion or expressing your opinion so long as it is not taught as "the truth".
  8. Prove God herewith

    First, that is quite the opposite of what I am saying and sounds more like what DemonsAway is calling for. He is saying that personal beliefs have no place in legislation and should be suppressed. My point is that all legislation is based on personal beliefs, and that all voices should be heard, so I'm not sure where you are coming from. Second, I think you are making a false accusation against the church. They will only "send you packing" if you teach your way as doctrine (if it is contrary from professed doctrines of the church). Culturally, you may not fit in very well if you have completely different beliefs from the norm, but they will not send you packing.
  9. Prove God herewith

    You say that you agree with me that it is fine to have personal beliefs without requiring burden of proof, and that you are ok with people voting on legislation according to their personal beliefs, yet you insist that we are not justified in enforcing our personal beliefs on others without proof? Do you see the contradiction? Anytime a law is voted in, then the popular personal beliefs will be enforced on the minority who have different personal beliefs. That is how it works. You may not like the system, but that is the system. We don't need proof or reason, so long as it is found constitutional. That is the point of voting - to have the people's voices (personal beliefs) heard! What you are proposing is that the voice of the people be suppressed in favor of "reason, logic, proof, etc." But I have to ask - who's reason, logic, and proof should we trust? What you don't get is that reason, logic, and proof are in the eye of the beholder. There are only opinions and interpretations, i.e. "personal beliefs".
  10. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0GFRcFm-aY
  11. Fairly Recent Ex Mormon

    I know that it can feel hopeless at times...hang in there! We are here for you! Ok, I am not really a fan of Christian pop music (well, pop music in general), but I thought that you might find some much needed hope from this song: http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=19EFB1NU
  12. Fairly Recent Ex Mormon

    This is starting to sound like a 12 step recovery group! If either of you need a sponsor, I am here for you. I am glad you are here and hope that you can eventually find lasting recovery from your condition. 1 day at a time!
  13. Prove God herewith

    I am free to believe in whatever I want (as you say) without any burden of proof. I am also free to vote according to my beliefs without any requisite burden of proof. People in the minority might not like the legislation (that's how it goes), but so long as it is found constitutional, nothing else needs to be proven (as if anything could be proven with certainty).
  14. If you are wrong, what difference does your point make? Because your opinion, your empty inclusivity, and false presumptions won't really have any validity in the end, will they? If you are right, then I am included aparently, so no worries! First of all, it is not about what I think or you think in the end. It is not me, or any other Mormon, who is being inclusive or exclusive of anyone...we are not your judge. I can't keep you out of heaven even if I wanted to, so what are we excluding you from exactly? As if you or I really have a say! I don't understand why you think what you are doing is any different. You think that my belief that baptism is required for exaltation is invalid don't you? You don't really accept that do you? We obviously can't both be right on that point. I accept your perspective, how could I not...it is yours after all, not mine. Proper authority and order makes sense in binding covenants and contracts. It makes sense in the secular world and it makes sense in the spiritual world as well. We are not asking you to take our word for it.
  15. I agree. I think one potential reason that it can be useful to distinguish between the roles of the Light of Christ and the Holy Ghost, is in helping us not to discount or disqualify other faith experiences as something "other". When they hear it taught that Mormons always have the spirit with them because of the gift of the Holy Ghost, and on-Mormons -not so much, then it is a very invalidating message and a turn off to those investigating the church. Especially for those who are intimately acquainted with the spirit (light of Christ) and accustomed to its presence and influence in their lives. In that case, I think it is helpful to point out that their experiences are no less valid or real than mine and likely come from the same source.