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pogi

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About pogi

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    Lost my face in the fuzz

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  1. This meeting was not about placing blame, or pointing the finger in shame. I didn't see any of that. The parents of the child who committed suicide spoke at this meeting...no one was blaming them for falling short. Instead, they received support. This meeting was about mourning with those who mourn. It is about increasing awareness of a very serious and worsening situation. It is about lending an open ear and listening to those who hurt. There is plenty of good evidence that suggests that family/community dynamics do play a significant role. This is not about condemnation or judgement however. We cant say for sure what environmental trigger might have exacerbated the situation for any given individual. It is probably a multitude of factors. No one person is to blame. Family dynamics may or may not have played a role in any given case. It is not for us to judge any individual. However, understanding that environment does play a role, places the burden on the community to work towards a solution to this problem - to take some ownership of it. Again there is a difference between shame and guilt. Guilt and ownership inspires change, reconciliation, and healing. Without it, you are simply ignoring the hole in the pipe and moping up the wet floor. This gets into the whole debate of preventive healthcare vs. curative healthcare (As a public health nurse, you don't want to open that can of worms with me ) You seem to favor curative measures by becoming better at recognizing symptoms and initiating early interventions. I agree, that is important. However, from my perspective, if an individual is to the point of showing suicidal symptoms, then we are already too late! I believe that we can do more good by investing in prevention over cure. Fix the leak! I favor preventive measures, without leaving the other undone. If we invested as much money and effort into prevention as we do curative measures, our healthcare system would be so much better!
  2. Who is this "we"? If Christ is the author, shouldn't this be written in the first person, like the D&C?
  3. The Destruction of God?

    I think that is a good point. Without evil, I don’t think that God could exist as God. He would be as Adam in Eden in a state of amoral perpetuity. Remember how God gained his knowledge?
  4. The important thing is that you created a healthy environment for him to feel safe to approach you and confess. Well done! That is healthy guilt. Shame, on the other hand, would have sent him to the shadows. One leads to reconciliation, the other to isolation.
  5. The Destruction of God?

    One possible source: This verse does give rise to interesting questions about the nature of evil. If it is required for the wisdom, purpose, and power of God, can it really be all that bad? Well, it has to be bad, or there couldn't be good. Yet because good is dependent upon the existence of evil, it is a required interdependent relationship, which is both good...and bad It is both mutalistic and antagonistic at the same time.
  6. This is so weird how much we think alike.
  7. This!!! Excellent article. The author, obviously taking her lead from John Bradshaw. As I like to point out, it all started in the garden of Eden. Adam partook of the fruit of knowledge making him vulnerable to moral imprinting, for better or worse. Lucifer took the first opportunity to distort his sense of self-worth through moral shaming. "You have done it now! You have ruined the plan of God! God will never accept you like this. Look at your filthy nakedness. ....hide yourself!" Isolation. Shame is one of the greatest tools of the adversary. The message that Adam received from Lucifer is this, "I will accept you as you are...God will not. You are better off with me." For a while, he believed it. He hid from God. That is the root of all this. Unfortunately, many unwittingly become tools of the adversary in whispering moral shame into the ears of the children of God, hoping that it will inspire them to change. This needs to stop. It is counterproductive to God's plan.
  8. You have pin-pointed the paradigm that needs to shift in society for healing and prevention to occur. Suicides are ALWAYS caused by mental health issues. And the mental illness does need to be treated individually. However, nursing a severely malnourished kid back to health, then sending him back home to his neglectful parents (the source of the malnourishment), is not going to solve the bigger problem. When you have a leaky pipe, preventing just one drop from hitting the floor is not good enough. No, you need to stop the leak! Why is this happening over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again? ........oh, there's a hole in the pipe! The question we need to be asking ourselves is, why? Why is this population at greater risk? What is causing significantly higher incidence of mental illness and suicide in this population (even among those who are not sexually active)? Until we address that problem, our pipe is not going to stop leaking. We know that religious heterosexual youth have lower risk for suicide then non-religious youth, while religious LGBT youth are at greater risk then non-religious youth. Hmmmmm..why the inversion? What is causing this "internalized homophobia" and conflict with sexual identity that leads to suicidal thoughts? Could it possibly be the family/community environment and culture/attitude towards LGBT youth? Well, that is what studies suggest that I have linked to. Is "homophobia" (I prefer "homonegativism) an inherited trait, or did they learn it from someone close to them, apply it to themselves, and end up in a self-shaming cycle that doesn't stop until they stop being gay...or dead? We know that when LGBT youth receive family and religious community support and acceptance, the risk goes down. So yes, we do have evidence that it works: You are absolutely right, the kids who display suicide risk need individual treatment and care. But, this needs to be a two pronged approach. We need to 1) treat mental health illness, and 2) mediate the source/cause of the mental health issues. If we want to stop the malnourishment of our children, we need to send them to the hospital for treatment, but more importantly we need to start feeding them better. It is as simple as that. We need a paradigm shift! Instead of further pathologizing these youth, we need to start looking inward. Further pathologizing these youth without acknowledging our role will only risk deepening the messages that they already receive, "I am broken. I am the problem. I am just an embarrassment. Maybe the world is better off without me..."
  9. The nurse in me is questioning your ability to triage a situation. There are two patients - one is bleeding out and pale from a deep slit wrist, the other has been hit really hard in the gut - possibly broke a rib. No other signs of injury. They both need care. Who are you going to treat first? You are right, members are persecuted for their doctrines on gay marriage. I see it too. No one has said that people who are persecuted for their beliefs need no compassion. But don't you think we should be focusing on the patient who is critically bleeding out? When the nurses rush out to take the child into emergent care and the man with the broke rib cries out, "what about me? This is not fair! Cant you see that I need treatment too! Take us both back!" The nurse, in that case, would rightly respond...get out of my way RIGHT NOW, I am trying to save this kid's life!
  10. Yes, you nailed it on the head. This is not about our critics, it is about saving the lives of our youth who are in jeopardy. This is about laying an old noxious culture deep down into the grave where it belongs, and where our youth do not belong. This is about our people. This is what a Zion people does for its members in great need. I don't take credit for this approach though. The brethren have been calling for the same adjustment of culture without adjustment of standards. While some have voiced valid concerns about a couple of the speakers chosen, and the recording, lets be careful to not throw out the baby with the bathwater.
  11. I have no problems with church doctrines on homosexuality. Yes, those doctrines can be taught without shaming. Historically, one problem has been that many in the church taught that people are not born gay: That culture has generated an unwelcoming and accepting environment for people who are gay. Think about how shaming that message is to someone who was born gay and believed in the teachings of the church! "I am dirty for feeling this way. I am unacceptable. I am weak. Why can't I chose God over the feelings of the devil? Why can't I be as strong as my brothers or my dad? I must be a mistake because I can't stop these feelings. I am not worthy. I am unclean. If people knew the real me, they would reject me. I am better off in hiding." Talk about a reason to isolate and hide in the shadows out of fear of rejection for who they are! Could you imagine how terrifying it would have been to reveal their orientation to their parents and friends, etc? Many, many parents could not accept it and rejected their children for their inborn orientation. Some viewed their child's sexual orientation as a choice influenced by the devil instead of a natural occurrence. Parents viewed their children as less-then, unworthy, unrighteous, unclean, an embarrassment on the family, even if they were not actively gay. That is the historical culture that I have witnessed in church and society in general. It still permeates today in the culture but the brethren are refining their message and hopefully the rank and file begin to follow suit. The brethren today recognize the stigma and homonegativism associated with identifying as gay: Let's see how far we have come from 1995: Compare all this to what we see today: Pay close attention to what he said: "The parent of a child who experiences same-sex attraction or identifies as gay should choose to love and embrace that child." The fact that even needed to be stated is a tragic commentary on where we are coming from. The church is getting better and better at this. To answer your question, yes, one can teach the doctrines without instilling shame for being gay...there shouldn't even be guilt, and absolutely no fear of being exposed for your sexual orientation. No fear of rejection. No fear of judgment or condemnation. They need to understand that they are not wrong, dirty, bad, unworthy, or unlovable, for their attractions to the same sex given to them by nature.
  12. I agree. Are we talking about the same meeting? I couldn’t have found recovery without that kind of listening love. I needed to experience being accepted and loved despite my sin...huge! However, I agree that church may not be the best forum for that. The purpose of this meeting was not to talk about their sin though. Being gay is not a sin. It was about their experiences as gay people in the church. Most speakers were not actively gay, so I don’t know what you mean about normalizing sin. But yes, giving a taboo subject center stage is exactly what is needed to remove the burden of toxic shame.
  13. Smac, I appreciate your concerns, I just don't agree with them. I see a lot of misunderstanding with what I have said, but responding to everyone has become increasingly difficult. But I will respect your CFR. Yes, I am aware of information that you have quoted form the Journal of Epidemiology. The study that I have discussed thoroughly in the other thread acknowledges that evidence, but found that LGBT youth, unlike their hetero counterparts, are at increased risk: What is the take away? 1) Religious LGBT youth are at increased risk. 2) Leaving the church may NOT be the best thing to do. 3) Changing doctrines is NOT the answer. 4) These youth need our support and understanding more than just about anybody.
  14. If inspiring, teaching, leading, and encouraging others to live their standards is toxic shame...then Mormons are the masters of it! There is a difference between inspiring healthy guilt (I made a mistake), and toxic shame (I am a mistake). The one leads to reconciliation and fellowship, the other leads to hiding and isolation.
  15. I said nothing of failure. Different leaders for different times with different strengths and weaknesses. David was different from Amos, who was different from Isaiah, who was different from Adam, etc. Yes, the spirit is top dog.
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