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About flameburns623

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    Former LDS considering return
  • Birthday 02/03/1960

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    Southern Illinois--near St. Louis

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  1. flameburns623

    Elder Oaks

    These questions and more are discussed with Dr. Brian Simmons in this episode of the Ask a Mormon Lesbian Podcast
  2. flameburns623

    Elder Oaks

    Try this for size: https://rationalfaiths.com/the-ask-a-mormon-lesbian-podcast-oaks-personal-stories-from-lgbtq-mormons-303/
  3. flameburns623

    Good for you Pres. Nelson!

    I think she is publishing a paper of some sort on spiritual abuse within the Church. Yes. She's serious. Vaguely, I think she was ex'd for something some time ago.
  4. flameburns623

    Good for you Pres. Nelson!

    Gina Colvin frsmes what is going on thus:
  5. I'm Libertarian so: yes, the pronter has the inherent right to refuse you service for any reason whatsoever. But if the gay printer refuses service out of religious bigotry, or the baker of a cake out of bigotry against LGBTQIA . . . . . . then the printer and the baker can be vocally recognized as bigots and they as well as their businesses can be systematically shunned for their bigotry. Not harried. Not hounded. Not persecuted. Just shunned. Such a shunning would not be endorsed universally. Doubtlessly, the printer and the baker will have a support network of family and friends who either agree with their bigotry or are at least not offended thereby. But: to lose friends , to lose business, to be refused service themselves by other business owners who make it clear they do no business with bigots: one hopes that like the proverbial dripping of water on the stone, the baker and the printer may slowly come to see, over time, the error of their ways. Not so satisfying as being able to use the brute force of the law to fine someone and perhapa imprison them for Thoughtcrime. But it honors personal liberties far better.
  6. flameburns623

    Replacing Mormonism with . . . ?

    Community of Christ? United Church of Christ? Anglican Communion? Unitarian Universalist? Any of a plethora of non-Christian faiths? Or . . .membership in a fraternal order which stresses ethical living and service to mankind? I think there are several fallback options.
  7. flameburns623

    Role of Neo or Progressive Apologetics within FairMormon

    You've been reading my mail. πŸ€¨πŸ˜€πŸ˜Š
  8. flameburns623

    Bill Reel announces he faces impending Bishop's Court

    That's not difficult to observe. It used to be a point of honor in the LDS Church that we enforced a measure of discipline. The Roman Catholic Church is riddled with criticisms and critics, and with theological disputants. Relatively few have experienced formal Church disciplinary action. Hans Kung, for example, cannot ('could not') teach "Catholic" theology but is still a Roman Catholic priest in good standing. There are long established Catholic organizations militating for various changes on RCC teaching or polity: there is some chiding by leaders, but little action against such dissidents. Even a renewed sex scandal is currently under way, with harsh words directed at Church leaders from both inside and out, has provoked contrition from the Church hierarchy, not punitive action. The Episcopal Church likewise tolerates considerable dissent. Most other denominations lack a structure, SFAIK, permitting a denomination-wide discipline: one could be disciplined so far as I know by the First United Methodist Church of Anytown, yet be fully accepted in the Main Street United Methodist Church a dozen blocks away. In many denominations, there are even different resources available for different schools of thinking within a denomination: i.e., more theologically progressive Sunday School "Quarterlies" and more conservative/orthodox ones, depending on the publishing source. The Sevent-day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses are pretty strict. Maybe the United Pentecostal Church. It's not that there are NO other churches with strict views and a robust enforcement of norms: but it hasn't been common to resort to disciplinary action in most Protestant churches for many generations.
  9. In Japan they have a type of garden called "Miegakure". It means "conceal and reveal". As one strolls the garden, some features are discoved while other features are lost from sight. At no point in the Miegakure garden can one see all of the features. In one particular such garden, there are fifteen boulders: but, no matter where you stand, you can count only fourteen. Moreover, the shadows and light, the patterns of minerals in the stones, the very shapes of the rocks create an experience unique to that particular vantage. One problem with interfaith dialogue is that adherents of each faith are strongly attached to the particular perspective they have achieved, and none are unwilling to move to a place where they can see another's. And somehow, the Internet suppresses empathy and reflective listening so that genuine dialogue is harder to achieve. They don't feel they are on the attack. They see themselves as recuers on "the ship so sound even God cannot sink it". But . . . .the Titanic is sinking, they are trying to get you into a lifeboat, and you are in utter denial. They think you're on fire. They think you don't realize you are on fire. They are trying to extinguish the flames consuming you before it's too late and you are beyond recovery.
  10. flameburns623

    Role of Neo or Progressive Apologetics within FairMormon

    You were not addressing me. However, I will note that my own approach to the Book of Mormon is sort of like the joke about the teacher of Judaic Studies, who approached a Jewish teacher of Talmud:
  11. I think I have made this observation previously in other threads. FreeInChrist is bringing into the discussion theological premises which serious Baptist, Calvinist, and Reformed theologians have developed over the past 500 or so years. The ideas are more coherent and cogent than is being presented here. The problem is, with all respect due to FiC, it appears that s/he has picked up these talking-points, this narrative, at second hand. With little or no formal training either in philosophy or in systematic theology. Several of the participants in this thread DO have more formal training in, at least, philosophy and dialectic discussion. This makes it easy to get FiC tied up into a pretzel. There are probably other underlying issues, such as different and deeply embedded value assumptions, which might bog FiC down more than s/he realizes. Anyhow, the Baptists coming to SLC may or may not be more sophisticated than FiC: my experiences suggest that it is rare for Evangelical apologetics ministries to really understand the beliefs of their target audience. There are usually just enough disconnects to limit the appeal of their attempted outreaches.
  12. flameburns623

    Bill Reel announces he faces impending Bishop's Court

    You may know better than I but each started from different places. IIRC: John Dehlin was helping Mormon LGBT youth. Bill Reel was something of an LDS apologist. Kate Kelly was an LDS feminist. Denver Snuffer was seeking a purer expression of holiness and obedience and greater fidelity to the known historical record. (Among the four, he remains thoroughly devout and has in fact inspired a burgeoning schismatic movement).
  13. flameburns623

    Bill Reel announces he faces impending Bishop's Court

    I, personally, aspire to Stage Five--but recognize that there is a bit of intellectual snobbery attached to claiming to have attained that outlook on faith. Frankly, I think that some traditions prefer that all or a majority of their adherents remain in Stages Two or Three. Those faiths don't know what to do with people in Stage Four--and such traditions are very uncomfortable with Stage Five believers. Sad to say, and as much as I love the Church, the culture of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is skewed this way. (But I think there are pockets where this is less true, and I am hopeful the Church is changing on this count). Progressive Christian denominations, I think, make Stage Five an aspirational model. But: I don't think they attain it, much of the time. Likewise, liberal arts colleges: notorious, these days, for "mandatory tolerance", aka 'Political Correctness'. DBMormon: I listened to the first podcast in your new series. Good stuff. Have you read much of Marcus Borg? I'm thinking he's up your spiritual alley these days.
  14. flameburns623

    Bill Reel announces he faces impending Bishop's Court

    Stage Three believers struggle and usually fail to understand Stage Five believers. http://www.psychologycharts.com/james-fowler-stages-of-faith.html https://www.simplypsychology.org/kohlberg.html Navigating Mormon Faith Crisis: A Simple Developmental Map https://www.amazon.com/dp/0996852603/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_rb.xBbBCE1314
  15. flameburns623

    Bill Reel announces he faces impending Bishop's Court

    No "Like" button for you. So: "Like".