The Nehor

Heber C. Kimball was probably talking about the experience that he had in England. “About day break, Brother Russel (who was appointed to preach in the Market place that day,) who slept in the second story of the house in which we were entertained; came up to the room where Elder Hyde and myself were sleeping; and called upon us to rise and pray for him, for he was so afflicted with evil spirits that he could not live long unless he should obtain relief. We immediately arose, and laid hands upon him, and prayed that the Lord would have mercy on his servant and rebuke the devil, while thus engaged I was struck with great force by some invisible power and fell senseless on the floor, as if I had been shot; and the first thing that I recollected was, that I was supported by Brothers Hyde and Russel, who were beseeching a throne of grace on my behalf. They then laid me on the bed, but my agony was so great that I could not endure, and I was obliged to get out, and fell on my knees and began to pray, I then sat on the bed and could distinctly see the evil spirits who foamed and gnashed their teeth upon us. We gazed upon them about an hour and a half, and I shall never forget the horror and malignity depicted on the countenances of these foul spirits, and any attempt to paint the scene which then presented itself; or portray the malice and enmity depicted in their countenances would be vain. I perspired exceedingly, and my clothes were as wet as if I had been taken out of the river. Although I felt exquisite pain, and was in the greatest distress for some time, and cannot even now look back on the scene without feelings of horror; yet, by it I learned the power of the adversary, his enmity against the servants of God, and got some understanding of the invisible world. However the Lord delivered us from the wrath of our spiritual enemies and blessed us exceedingly that day, and I had the pleasure (notwithstanding my weakness of body, from the shock I had experienced, spiritual) of baptizing nine individuals and hailing them brethren in the kingdom of God.” On my mission tour we went there. It is believed to be the same building. It was a solicitor’s office when we visited. *insert obvious lawyer joke here* There is some controversy about the account. An earlier account had an auditory component with the spirits but no visual one. It is also possible these were two separate events. Elder Kimball also was very cautious about this account. He may have downplayed the event until he spoke to Joseph Smith about it. Elder Kimball did share the more visual account later as well.

Have you tried the prescription you are writing for other people to see if you can make it work?

This is objectively wrong. The words “homosexuality” and “homosexual” were invented by psychiatrists who hoped to cure it. Your fantasies about how and why terms came into existence are just that: fantasies. And? There are plenty of people I would call queer based on behavior who choose not to put a label on themselves. That is their call. It doesn’t have the impact you seem to think it will. Nope, do you just like being wrong? That was when the identities we use now that spread far and wide came into use. Other cultures have had sexual identities and gender identities that went beyond the binary. I find it sadly ironic that you are trying to throw the “WESTERN” label at me as if I am the one being provincial The Maoli people of Hawaii had Mahu, priests who left the gender binary to become both male and female. The Ankole in Uganda elected a woman to become a man and act as a priest to a god. In the Sakalave people of Madagascar some little boys were raised as girls and were called sekrata. The Bugis of Indonesia recognized five genders. Some American Indian tribes have a concept often called “two spirited” which encompassed diverse sexualities and/or gender expressions. You have the femminielli of Italy. In Japanese culture you have “The Great Mirror of Male Love” a book about those with mixed relationships and those who chose exclusively male relationships (i.e. what we would call bisexual men and another category who we would call gay men). You have works in China and India that explicitly group those who chose exclusively male partners. Plato talks of men who only chose other male partners. Have a few more: https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/Issues/Discrimination/LGBT/FactSheets/UNFESexual_orientation_gender_identity_throughout_history.pdf Many of these alternate sexualities and genders were weakened or outright destroyed by colonialism. Good job Christianity and Islam! The Germans in the early 20th century were at the leading edge of what we would call research into gender and sexuality. There were early gender-affirming surgeries, books and research on sexuality, and a lot of institutional knowledge. Then the Nazis showed up and destroyed it all. PUNCH NAZIS!!!!!!!!! Remember to punch behind the Nazi’s head. You want to go through the head when throwing the punch to maximize the pain and damage. VENGEANCE!!!!!!! Yes, we call that majority the straight or heterosexual peoples in our culture. As I pointed out to you before when you are the default you don’t think about it a lot. Do you think that if your sexual and romantic attractions were radically different you might think about it a little bit more?

There is a difference between suffering and betrayal.

Because everything in this field of study is in flux. Hamba’s statements are not what you will find if you look around academia or the internet for what the current consensus is. There are actually only a few things most people agree on. Hamba’s words serve as a nice bit of unchanging holy writ. If smac tried to discuss gender identity with those actually reading Foucault and discussing whether they are social constructs, ideological constructs, or whatever and posted Hamba’s quotes he would be laughed at. Hamba’s quotes come from a minority view that was looking to discredit sexual identity by giving a superficial discussion of what is being studied and then jumping to conclusions that sexual identities are modern and are a problem. It is the exaltation of ignorance. ‘If we stop talking about it the problem will go away.’ It is a common approach to solve all questions of sexuality, racism, economic injustice, etc. Of course the purpose is to keep the inequality and maintain the status quo in the interests of peace and order.

Maintaining faith after broken promises may be a choice but it also feels dishonest.

Again….you could try reading from professional sources and not clinging to the authority of a message board poster who told you things you want to hear. It is kind of pathetic.

Of course you don’t think about it. The entire culture is built so you don’t have to. You are the default. Almost everything caters to your identity and you don’t have to think about it. When a gay couple does something in public it is often seen as demonstrative or an imposition even if it is something a hetero couple can do freely without comment. They are moving into your space that caters to you. Of course you don’t think of it. I remember a complaint from a while back from someone sick of labels: ”I am not heterosexual or straight. I am just normal.” That is saying pretty much the same thing you are. You aren’t enlightened for not thinking about your sexual identity. You just get the advantages of it without having to think about it.

I wish I still trusted that promise. I used to love that line.

I am just guessing someone mentioned to him that women are wearing yoga pants instead of garments and that is why he talked about them.

Not addressing the legitimate health problems that women sometimes experience wearing garments? No, okay. Yoga pants made me laugh. This was triggered by an anecdote this guy heard about from a friend isn’t it?

Quoting scripture to compare someone to an antichrist might not be the same as just regular quoting scripture. I suspect you know that though and are just playing word games.

Please don’t kinkshame.

Skyler, I read his book. He advocates for gay men to at least be open to marrying a woman. The counsel that we are told not to encourage anymore. Having read his story thought I very strongly suspect that he is gay and biromantic. That makes marrying a woman much easier and even desirable. I think he generalizes his private story too much while not accepting that this is much easier for him than others. I am not even sure he knows that sexual and romantic attraction are two different orientations. They are often in alignment but not always.

LOL No.

He doesn’t. Glad we sorted that out. Thanks for letting me decide.

I watched part of this and one of the names sounded familiar. I realized I read his book. Oh boy……

You’d have to ask Brigham Young. If I remember correctly he said he went to funerals of people in the church where he thought this was why they died. This was decades ago so my memory could be off.

Some of the early apostles taught that if your calling and election were made sure that God would kill you if you were heading for perdition level sin.

That is not about temple garments and Elder Bednar doesn’t even imply they are related.

Would leaving the church be the first step in ending said struggle? If not, it is not really comparable. If you can make it stop most will take that option.

All suffering is okat because others are suffering at that same level or worse? And I thought I was pessimistic.