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About bdouglas

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    Knight Of the Woeful Countenance

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  1. I sure would i.e reject him immediately. Unless he had something to show. What did JS have to show? In 1830 he had the BOM, sections 1, 3 10 etc. And really this is the bottom line. Denver Snuffer has nothing to show. He says, "I have seen and heard things not lawful for man to utter." Wow, you think. Imagine what this man knows! But then you read his revelations and you talk to him ... and there's nothing there, just an ordinary Gospel Hobbyist, not any different from the Gospel Hobbyists you remember in the neighborhood when you were growing up, who were all a bit kooky ... or weird.
  2. Well, as I said, I guess weird/weirdness is in the eye of the beholder. And yes, looking into a chocolate rock would be weird——except that what we got from that chocolate rock is the BOM, perhaps the most amazing book in existence in the world today. And so it is with polygamy also. What were the fruits of polygamy? A generation of church leaders that carried the church through its first one hundred years. What are Mr. Snuffer's fruits? A revelation (quoted above) that is dripping with narcissism and silliness and is impossible to take seriously, and another revelation (the Gospel of John revelation) that is basically unreadable. It's same with all of the Fundie Fruitcakes——Jim Harmston, Mauricio Berger, Glendenning, all of them. They don't have anything to show. Mr. Snuffer says, "I see and speak with the Lord regularly." But what does he have to show for this? Really nothing. Nobody today reads the revelations of Jim Harmston or Maurice Glendenning, and in 50 years, nobody will read the silly revelations of Denver Snuffer aka David.
  3. Do you think that receiving ridiculous revelations that supposedly come from God is weird? Below is the one wherein the Lord commands Mr. Snuffer to change his name to David. Sorry, but this strikes me as very weird. Mr. Snuffer comes across as a weirdo (however, I realize weirdness, weirdo is in the eye of the beholder). I don't see Mr. Snuffer as any different from Jim Harmston, Maurice Glendenning, Mauricio Berger et al. They are all frauds. While they are alive they succeed in attracting a few followers, but their movements, such as they are, fall apart the minute they are gone. A pic of Mr. Snuffer aka David.
  4. I once heard from a member of Elder Richard Scott’s family that, in his spare time, he would sometimes paint in the bathroom with water colors. He was an amateur artist and he sometimes did his painting in the bathroom. This is an example of maybe a quirk. But it is not the same thing as weird. These guys like Denver Snuffer become weirdos. Jim Harmston arguing with his followers about whether it is permissible to be in bed with more than one wife at one time is weird. John Koyle digging for years and years at the dream mine for gold when geologist Elder James Talmage said there is no gold because the mountain is gravel is weird. Going down into the basement of your home in the middle of the night and babbling away in tongues (as my relative did a couple of times) is weird. Christopher Nemelka (or Mr. Snuffer) dressing like an 1850s street preacher in NYC when it is not 1850 but 2019 is weird. The wife of my relative who for a short time was a follower of Mr. Snuffer (and during this time went out all out to have his calling and election made sure and to “see the face of the Lord”) said something very interesting. She said, “Mike’s [not his real name] appearance even changed——and not for the good. Something about his appearance actually changed. It was actually quite alarming to me.” In other words, he began to be weird; he was on the road to becoming a weirdo. The influence of the Holy Ghost——the real Holy Ghost, not Satan’s imitation——does not make people weird. It does just the opposite.
  5. When Jim Harmston, the Manti Fundie (Fundamentalist) died, his movement broke up; and while there are (at least I have heard) a handful of hardcore followers still in Manti, for the most part, his movement does not exist anymore. If Harmston is remembered at all in the years to come, it will be as a Weirdo Gospel-Hobbyist Fundie who strutted about for a time and then sank without a trace. So it was also with James Strang. I think there are a few Strang-ites still about, a handful or hardcore followers who read his inspired translation of the Voree plates and his other writings/revelations. But really, with his death, he also sank without a trace. And then there was Maurice Glendenning, who had several revelations, revelations which he published and which attracted a small group of believers. But when he died, his revelations died with him and he is forgotten. Not even the Levites in Eksdale believe his revelations anymore. And right now, in addition to Mr. Snuffer, there is Mauricio Berger, who has translated the sealed portion. This translation is amazingly bad, total nonsense from top to bottom (it actually reads like BOM fan fiction might, written by a precocious 7th grader), but still, Mauricio has his believers, among them one Joseph Frederick Smith, a descendant of JS. But when Mauricio dies, he will also sink without a trace (actually this will probably happen before he dies), just like Strang, Harmston, Glendenning, and the five hundred other Fundie Prophets/Gospel-Hobbyists who appeared and then disappeared after the death of JS, failing to establish any kind of a foothold. And so, I predict, will it be with Mr. Snuffer. After he is gone, his revelations will become curiosities, cultural artifacts, like Strang’s translation of the Voree plates or Maurice Glendenning’s silly productions. Mr. Snuffer appeals to Gospel-Hobbyists and Fundies by promising a more robust Mormonism, with visions and revelations aplenty, a return to the glory days of JS. In fact, he now styles himself, I have heard, like a prophet circa 1850, complete with long white wispy hair and beard. I almost expect him to start writing his revelations on foolscap paper using iron-based ink, “just as Joseph did.” (Literalism is, after all, the Fundie disease.) In short, Denver Snuffer is a fake, a fraud, just like Jim Harmson, Mauricio Berger, Maurice Glendenning, and the hundreds of other Fundie Prophets who preceded him and are now forgotten. P.S. - One unique aspect of today’s new Fundie Prophets is that they eschew polygamy. Jim Harmston didn’t, but Mr. Snuffer does, as does Mauricio Berger. How they reconcile this with JS polygamy, I don’t know. P.S. 2 - The member of my extended family, who followed Mr. Snuffer for a time (less than a year), is now back in the fold. “I have learned my lesson,” he said.
  6. Because there is a member of my extended family who has become a Fundamentalist, I have spent a little time reading about Denver Snuffer, Jim Harmston, and lately Mauricio Berger (the Brazilian excommunicated LDS who says he’s translated the sealed portion). There are two qualities (among others) these Fundamentalist LDS share, in my opinion. One, quirky; or weird. They don't begin as quirky/weird, but they seem to become so as time goes on. It is hard to pinpoint exactly, but it is there. Two, narcissism. You see this when Jim Harmston announced that he was Joseph Smith in a new probation. Or in the supposed revelation Mr. Snuffer received proclaiming that his name is now changed to David. For all Snuffer’s fake modesty, the narcissism is there. Denver Snuffer, Jim Harmston, Christopher Nemelka, Mauricio Berger——for me, these guys are all just Gospel Hobbyists, impossible to take seriously. They are examples of what happens when zeal runs amuck; or “zeal without knowledge” (Nibley); or zeal without the necessary balancing qualities of knowledge and wisdom.
  7. My apologies to USU78 if my reply came across as curt. To my thinking, the OP is relevant to any LDS who are interested in missionary outreach among Catholics. How many of the world’s 1 billion Catholics are, right now, in the midst of a faith crisis? Now it is not necessary for a missionary to understand what clericalism is or what the origins of priestly celibacy in the Catholic priesthood are, anymore than it is necessary for a missionary to have read “Lehi In the Desert” to teach from the BOM. But it might help. (And, apart from all this, I am simply interested in the Catholic church.)
  8. Then why waste time bothering to comment? It is something why wife (a Catholic for 25 years) and I talk about over dinner.
  9. Thank you, 3DOP, for your perspective. My wife was Catholic for 25 years, and although she is now LDS, she retains much of her past Catholicism (and I wouldn't rid of her of this even if I could). I love the Catholic church, and I love the Catholic novelist Graham Greene. The Power and the Glory is my favorite 20th century novel. There is one thing I disagree with you on, and that is, "Can Catholicism survive if it retains its celibate priesthood?" I don't think it can. I think it should at least give priests (and nuns) the option of being celibate or marrying. I don't think celibacy is practically possible in the modern world nor do I think it is a good idea.
  10. I was asked the other day, "If you couldn't be Mormon, what would you be?" I said, "Well I could never be an atheist or agnostic. I couldn't be a Jew because Jews are not very open to converts. Becoming an Evangelical would be out of the question, not in the realm of possibility for me. I think I would become a Catholic." I have been listening to the audiobook "An Unquenchable Thirst" and find all of the parallels between Catholicism and Mormonism very interesting.
  11. The author of the article is a former priest and a devout Catholic. He says, among other things—— Nobody, and especially not the author of this article, is discounting all of the good the Catholic church has done and continues to do.
  12. From the Washington Post, "I Attended Seminary in the 1960s": https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2018/08/19/i-attended-seminary-in-the-1960s-priests-of-my-generation-need-to-look-within/?utm_term=.b181744a0b6a Quote from article:
  13. Almost as interesting as the article itself are the reader comments—— https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/08/the-conversation/592753/
  14. From last month's Atlantic Monthly—— https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/06/to-save-the-church-dismantle-the-priesthood/588073/ Questions for Catholic board members (if there are any) and LDS who are interested in and like the Catholic church (as I do)—— Could Catholicism survive the dismantling of the priesthood i.e. its clerical class? On the other hand, can Catholicism survive if it retains its celibate priesthood (with the attendant infantilization of priests and psychological and emotional disfigurement that can and often does result from self-imposed celibacy)? Is the Catholic church caught between a rock and a hard place? (P.S. - Best to read article before commenting.)
  15. You remind me of our ward gospel hobbyist when I was growing up. No matter what was being discussed in priesthood mtg or gospel doctrine, this old High Priest would always find a way to steer things to a discussion of the communist threat, Ezra Taft Benson’s writings, etc. And every F & T mtg., there he was, front and center, harping on the same thing. “Is there any other tune you can whistle?” my dad asked him one Sunday after meetings, only half in jest. Who cares where the Mesoamerica limited geography theory came from? I don’t. What we do——or what we should do——is follow the evidence. And right now this evidence seems to point to a Mesoamerica limited geography.
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