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About Gervin

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    Separates Water & Dry Land

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  1. I'm not familiar with his testimony or the testimony of Harris, if any. I didn't express any doubt over what they claim occurred. I just asked 1) where the information came from (if it can be sourced), and 2) if people generally believe if the text was proofed by God in real time. If God ensured that the words that appeared were correctly copied down, then there is no way that Joseph Smith added his own words, vocabulary or idioms. And he didn't add the words of the KJV (the original author /editor somehow wrote in the KJV idiom), and he didn't add phrases found in other writings and Biblical-like texts of the day. That's why I asked if people really believe that to be true. Honest response. thx
  2. Martin Harris: Quote Here are two independent (?) testimonies to a God-directed quality control of the text that, if true, could only have originated with Jos. Smith. Anyone know who imparted this information to Harris and Whitmer? Are they to be believed?
  3. They learn the secret of the brass ball back in Chapter 16. Are you saying they knew how the ball worked and they nevertheless "wandered" for 8 years? I mean, really - if they were so unfaithful then why were they chosen to build a ship, navigate a ship, land a ship, settle a new world, etc.. - stuff they could only do by faith? And they were not afflicted with hunger and thirst: 3 And thus we see that the commandments of God must be fulfilled. And if it so be that the children of men keep the commandments of God he doth nourish them, and strengthen them, and provide means whereby they can accomplish the thing which he has commanded them; wherefore, he did provide means for us while we did sojourn in the wilderness. I'm still curious as to how long you think it took for them to travel from Nahom to Bountiful.
  4. If the Book of Mormon came forth via conspiratorial means, what is the minimum number of people who had to be involved?
  5. Anyone consciously involved in a conspiracy could be deemed as lacking integrity. But, in contrast to your claim, there is no evidence that every single person involved in a conspiracy will "inevitably" rat each other out. I don't think we define hard evidence in the same way, so I'll leave you to make your case among fellow believers. Based on what I read on this board, the adherents have plenty of doubts and a lack of consensus as to what they consider evidence.
  6. Perhaps, but would exposure of the Book of Mormon as fraudulent be considered "criminal?" Criminal conspiracies typically involve personal gain or direct malice. The motivations are high, but also the motivations of law enforcement to encourage ratting out the group. Social conspiracies are more vague - think about the industry-wide conspiracy to keep minorities out of established white neighborhoods or apartment buildings. While the laws caught up some offenders, the motivations were more nuanced. Religious conspiracies, as a subset of social conspiracies, contain motivations limited only by imagination: https://www.sbs.com.au/topics/life/culture/explainer/worlds-most-obscure-religions I believe that the coming forth of the Book of Mormon was conspiratorial and the motives of those involved limited only by their imaginations, as stirred on by a myriad of cultural, religious, and personal factors, interests, and motivations. It's become something quaint. How could that be a crime?
  7. It's no problem for an author writing in 1540 to create over 50,000 phrases that later appear in KJV, ca 1611? How so?
  8. Why exclude the KJV? It presents the overwhelming evidence for EModE outside of the the realm of Joseph Smith's knowledge; more than fifty thousand phrases of three or more words, excluding definite and indefinite articles, are common to the Bible and the Book of Mormon.
  9. We’re talking about a distance, from Nahom to Bountiful, that is equivalent to Kansas City to Indianapolis. How many years for this stage of the trip? The text demarcates time in the wilderness against their arrival to Bountiful. And nothing in the description of the place suggests wilderness. Btw, Where is the brass compass these eight years?
  10. If they traveled in a mostly eastern direction from Nahom to Bountiful, why did it take them 8 years to make a journey that should have only required a few months, tops?
  11. What’s the estimated distance from Nahom to Bountiful?
  12. I’ll try to circle back to the “once saved ...” but want to go on record re Leesburg: great place that I don’t get to often enough. You live in one the great No Va towns. Probably growing too fast for some. Balls Bluff one of my favorite (minor) civil war sites.
  13. Thanks. I know of a few of the area farms - and I have some connections to Whiffletree Farm. Does theirs go by a particular name? Yes, it is beautiful in both Spring and Fall.
  14. I hear you. I used to commute from W'ton to K (then Eye) Streets in the District but have a more reasonable commute now. Warrenton is a really nice place and was a great place to raise a family ... not the best place for young folks, though; my grown kids have migrated to Richmond and Atlanta. I may someday follow them
  15. Casually castigating 800 million - 1 billion Protestants seems pretty ridiculous. Oh, I see you're from Leesburg. Down in Warrenton us Protestants are deeply engaged in discipleship.
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