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Teancum

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  1. Glenn I appreciate your comments and interaction. Thank you for being kind and patient. A few other thoughts. In my opinion the burden of proof for fantastical supernatural claims, etc is on the one making the claims. Can I refute the claims of the Bible? Of course not. But anyone can claim anything. I can claim right now that the God speaking to me is from the planet Kronos and is a Klingon and we all need to become a warrior race and our honor and salvation is based on that, and you now need to go pray to see if I am right. How would you decide whether or not to pursue this? Really the burden of proof should be on me. As for the LDS Church and Jospeh, the truth claims of the LDS Church entirely rest on whether Smith was a prophet or not and whether his claims are true. Why should anyone give weight to his claims? How can one decide whether it is worth their time and effort? It seems to me that is should be based on whether someone can trust him or not. Otherwise why not give the same effort to any fantastic claims like I note above? Last of all yes I had spiritual experiences that led me to believe the LDS truth claims were true and the Joseph was a prophet. But they were based on limited information and without full disclosure. Once I found the full disclosure on my own I had to re-evaluate those experiences in that light.
  2. What are the limitations of science?
  3. the if in your post is a HUGE IF...
  4. Why when trying to determine fanastical relious claims is it only done with prayer, faith and the holy ghost? Would you fly in a plane that was built on such a premis? Or would you rather be sure the engineers that built the plane had good science behind it?
  5. We can talk about Jesus if you want as well as how the Universe came to be, the origin of life on this planet, etc. I find the claims of the Bible fairly fantastical as well. The book by Bart Ehrmen called How Jesus Became God is a good start on some of the evidence that Jesus was not what the Bible claims for him. I don't believe a spiritual experience is a very good way to determine the truth of much of anything. The method is wrought with subjectivity to the individual and many have spiritual experiences that confirm the truth of one thing that would prove another thing that perhaps you had a spiritual experience about that confirmed the truth of it to you. Regarding your comment that I feel I have learned enough from secular history to judge Joseph's character and trustworthiness. You say you don't think so. I am not sure what you don't think so about. Are you saying you don't think that I have learned enough to make such a judgement? If so you have a lot of hubris. I have not said you haven't learned enough on this topic or that if you have you have made the wrong decision for you. Look I think it is pretty clear Joseph made it all up and others may have been in on it. I can fall to the pious fraud model that Dan Vogel supports. But that is just for me. Other honest and good people can review the same evidence and conclude differently as it seem you have. Last of all so what that many believed it and went through great trials for it? There are all sorts of religions and other things that people have given their all for that you would likely find false. Just because people believe and sacrifice for something does not make it true.
  6. As you can see I was not responding to you comments about the origin of the universe. So if you are examining the supernatural claims of some other alleged prophet how would you go about deciding whether it was worth your time to pursue it and then pray about it? Someone besides Joseph Smith? As for Joseph Smith I think we have plenty of information to decide whether he can be trusted in his supernatural claims, or not. What one chooses to do with that information is up to them. The problem with the LDS Church in ht past is that such information was not readily available to the rank and file member praying for a testimony, nor of the average investigator that the missionaries were teaching. And the missionaries didn't offer it because likley they did not know it. Today the information is available but the message from the Brethren is essentially to just ignore it.
  7. Joseph Smith seemed to know a lot about it. Did we forget what he said? Or do we just want to run away from it?
  8. Secular research can determine whether or not the person making fantastic claims of supernatural interaction with deity should be trusted. Then one can decide if the topic of prayer, meditations, etc in order to gain a metaphysical confirmation of some event is worth the time and effort. I guess one's level of trust is based on their own view of how much evidence is needed to make an up or down determination as to whether or not to pursue such questions. I recall a number of times Scott Lloyd saying that all the church and the apologists need to do is demonstrate that it is plausible that what Joseph claimed is true in order for someone to seek their own confirmation. To me that is a pretty low bar. For others apparently not.
  9. Hey thanks! It is not often someone here agrees with me! 😁
  10. I have no sympathy. They make great claims to be the Lord's anointed and have direction straight from God for the church and world. "Follow the brethren" is the mantra I have heard all my life. They need to suck it up and own it and not be afraid of the repercussions. Abinadi wasn't.
  11. The repercussions of the high tech society we are. Watch your words or won them.
  12. It is not a great revelations. Oaks and his peers don't want you to research or use critical thinking. Just have faith and keep your fanny in the pew. Nothing new here. But a horribly poor way to approach truth claims and to live your life. Follow the brethren, even if they lead you astray...and you still will be blessed.
  13. Why shouldn't people record what the Lord's "annointed" say? Are they afraid of the repercussions?
  14. It simply is more proof that the leaders of the LDS Church are in panic mode and doubling down on their authority and telling members not to critically think. I think this is the beginning of the end of the LDS Church as we know it.
  15. Teancum

    "Why some people leave the Church"

    Ok. But Brigham was an up and comer. And very ambitious as we saw in the succession crisis. He saw a future opportunity.
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