• Announcements

    • Nemesis

      Contact Us Broken   09/27/2016

      Users, It has come to our attention that the contact us feature on the site is broken.  Please do not use this feature to contact board admins.  Please go through normal channels.  If you are ignored there then assume your request was denied. Also if you try to email us that email address is pretty much ignored.  Also don't contact us to complain, ask for favors, donations, or any other thing that you may think would annoy us.  Nemesis

ChristKnight

Members
  • Content count

    549
  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won

    1

ChristKnight last won the day on February 26 2012

ChristKnight had the most liked content!

Community Reputation

193 Excellent

About ChristKnight

  • Rank
    Seasoned Member: Separates Light & Dark

Profile Information

  • Gender
    Male

Recent Profile Visitors

2,429 profile views
  1. In case anyone is interested, the NYT has an article on the matter: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/07/us/mormon-videos-leaked.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur
  2. Which of course isn't relevant to anything. The point is that your statements are quite clearly not representative of what the Trinity doctrine is actually teaching, but are representative of the modalist/patripassianist non-Trinitarian heresies, as I documented. What do you mean by "ordinary" Christian beliefs? Who are "conciliarists"? Interestingly enough, your references do not actually support what you said earlier ("Most so-called "christians" do believe that God the Father came down, took on a body, was crucified, and then resurrected. For them, the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and God the Father are all one and the same person"). None of those references state anything about "God the Father" coming down to the earth, being crucified, and being resurrected. None of those references state anything about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit being "one and the same person". Indeed, you quote Wikipedia, which explicitly states that there are three Persons, and that they are distinct from each other. Anyway, thank you for trying. As mentioned earlier, I don't want to derail this thread. However, I did want to address a clear misrepresentation of the Trinity doctrine. Now, I will grant that there are many who do not understand the Trinity, and perhaps will describe it (incorrectly, as we have seen) as the Father incarnating, or the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit being one Person. However, it is clear that they are wrong, and are not representative of what the Trinity actually teaches (by your own references), and there is no evidence that "most so-called 'christians'" (as you say) believe such things. It is clear that the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, mainline Protestantism, and evangelical Christianity (representative of the vast majority of Christianity) all teach the distinction of Persons and God the Son (not God the Father) incarnating, against your characterization.
  3. Unfortunately that would not be correct. As you quoted, it states that the Persons are distinct from one another in their relations of origin, and their relations with one another. So no, it would not be Trinitarian belief that God the Father came down on earth and died on the cross. Robert and yourself actually describe Trinitarian heresies denounced by Trinitarians. From wikipedia as well: 1) Patripassianism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patripassianism): patripassianism (as it is referred to in the Western church) or Sabellianism in the Eastern church (also known as modalism, modalistic monarchianism, or modal monarchism) is the nontrinitarian or anti-trinitarian belief that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are three different modes or aspects of one monadic God, as perceived by the believer, rather than three distinct persons within the Godhead - that there are no real or substantial differences between the three, such that there is no substantial identity for the Spirit or the Son.[1] In the West, this belief was known as patripassianism (from Latin patri- "father" and passio "suffering"), because the teaching required that since the Father had become incarnate in Christ, he had suffered.[2] From the standpoint of the doctrine of the Trinity—one divine being existing in three persons—patripassianism is considered heretical since "it simply cannot make sense of the New Testament's teaching on the interpersonal relationship of Father, Son, and Spirit."[3] In this patripassianism asserts that God the Father—rather than God the Son—became incarnate and suffered on the cross for humanity's redemption. This not only denies the personhood of God-the-Son (Jesus Christ), but is seen by trinitarians as distorting the spiritual transaction that was taking place at the cross, which the Apostle Paul described as follows: "God [the Father] was reconciling the world to himself in Christ [the Son], not counting people’s sins against them. . . . God [the Father] made him who had no sin [God-the-Son] to be sin for us, so that in him [the Son] we might become the righteousness of God [the Father]." (2 Corinthians 5:19, 21) 2) Modalism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabellianism): In Christianity, Sabellianism in the Eastern church or Patripassianism in the Western church (also known as modalism, modalistic monarchianism, or modal monarchism) is the nontrinitarian or anti-trinitarian belief that the Heavenly Father, Resurrected Son, and Holy Spiritare three different modes or aspects of one monadic God, as perceived by the believer, rather than three distinct persons within the Godhead—that there are no real or substantial differences among the three, such that there is no substantial identity for the Spirit or the Son.[1] Also, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, on the Trinity: 254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune. From the quote from the Catechism, we see that it is Trinitarian doctrine that the Son is not the Father, the Father is not the Son, the Spirit is not the Father nor the Son, etc. From all of this, we see that no, it is not Trinitarian doctrine that the Father came down and incarnated as the Son, nor is it Trinitarian doctrine that it was the Father that was crucified (as we see above, that is the non-Trinitarian heresy of patripassianism), nor is it Trinitarian doctrine that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one Person (as we see above, that is the non-Trinitarian heresy of modalism). Anyway, sorry for going way off topic, but I had to address this clear misunderstanding of the Trinity doctrine.
  4. Don't fall for it.
  5. Thanks. Seems as if there are currently 96 general authority seventies (comprising the 1st and 2nd quorums right). So, at least currently, there are not seventy seventies in the LDS church. I won't belabor the point, it was just that you seemed to be placing importance on there being numerically 70 "seventies", when, at least in the LDS church today, that isn't the case (whether more or less, or whether one quorum has 70 and another doesn't, etc).
  6. So...there are multiple quorums of seventies, but are there seventy Seventies? You said, in relation to Catholic cardinals, "except there aren't seventy of them". So, I'm wondering if the LDS church has seventy seventies. From what I understand, it does not, but I am open to being corrected.
  7. Are there seventy Seventies in the LDS church?
  8. If I remember correctly, the "heck" wasn't for merely attending both the Catholic Church and LDS Church for services (I don't think most would have a problem with that), but partaking of the Eucharist.
  9. Thanks for sharing. Yes, as we see directly in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it is official Catholic teaching that Jesus Christ is our brother. This of course differs from the specific way that LDS (at least in one sense) may understand Christ being our brother (i.e. being the literal first born spirit child of the Father (and Heavenly Mother)), however it is clear that traditional Christianity does consider Christ as not only being the Son of God (and God the Son), but also our brother. Thanks again, no need to go down a rabbit hole.
  10. Not really, since the Trinity teaches that the Father and Son are distinct Persons who are not each other.
  11. Catholics celebrate Good Friday with a solemn liturgy of the Lord's passion and death. This liturgy involves three parts: in the Liturgy of the Word, we read the scriptures related to the suffering and death of Jesus Christ, from both the Old and New Testaments (you may read those scriptures here). When we reach the moment where Jesus dies, all kneel in silence and reflect on that solemn, sacred moment in time. There is also the Liturgy of the Presanctified, where we partake of already consecrated bread and wine (as opposed to bread and wine consecrated during the liturgy). Finally, there is the veneration of the cross, where we may venerate a crucifix, meditating on Christ's sacrifice for us. Catholic parishes also often have a meditation on the last seven words of Jesus Christ (and of course you can do that on your own). You can read about that here. Hope that helps.
  12. Whenever thinking about the temple context of Catholicism, I enjoy reading Scott Hahn's praise for the book "The Church: Unlocking the Secrets to the Places Catholics Call Home" by Mike Aquilina. He says, in part: "What the Temple was to the Israelites, our churches are for us Catholics. They are sanctuaries of God's presence-the meeting place of heaven and earth." I think it is clear that in Catholicism, churches, basilicas, cathedrals, etc are all in the synagogue and temple lineages. In these buildings, Catholics purify themselves with water, are anointed with oil, a sacrificial priesthood ministers, psalms are sung, there is the Bread of the Presence (see Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist), feast and holy days are celebrated there, etc. The sanctuary lamp calls to mind not only the synagogue, but also the temple, i.e. the menorah. The Jewish synagogue and temple roots of Catholic liturgies are readily apparent and beautiful.
  13. Yep that's it, thanks.
  14. Agreed. The Trinity doctrine states that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct Persons who are not each other. Jesus was praying to the Father, not Himself.