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Posts posted by randy

  1. "Depends, I know how to fight with fists but have no training with a gun. I prefer ten inches if they have a firearm."

    That's the point...you will never get within 10".   I'm remembering that scene in one of those "Indiana Jones" movies where Indiana Jones is confronted by this really BIG guy with an even BIGGER sword. The bad guy makes some really threatening gestures with the sword, then Indiana Jones looks at him with a "really....seriously?" look on his face, and then just pulls out his pistol and shoots him.   That's pretty much what we're talking about here.  As the ole saying goes..."you don't bring a knife to a gun fight".  You WILL LOSE!  Every time!


    I would just add...get a gun,  get trained....then get more training!   Then when you're done with that.....get more training!


  2. 3 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

    Randy, not sure what “picture” you are seeing? I was not attempting to paint anyone in either a positive or negative light. I am just speaking to issues of which I am very, very aware. I am retired law-enforcement, I carry concealed and openly, depending of the circumstances. I am also a gun collector, very pro-2nd Amendment, and was speaking to a number of different things, protection, policy, etc. as it relates to the Church’s new policy. I posted a number of things, so maybe a look at all of the posts, and how they unfolded would help “paint the entire picture”. That and my own personal experience, on and off the job, as it relates to guns, gun owners, and gun safety. Or maybe not? Your call, brother. 

    Papa.. this is good to know.  I am very aware of these issues as well.  Like you and I, anyone who has seen gun violence in the "raw" know in ways that others don't...just how important these "active shooter protocols" are. You have seen it, smelled it, heard it and touched it, and I know you know exactly what Iam referring to.   It is my responsibility to protect myself, my family and others as the situation dictates.  I believe you know in your heart..given all of your real world experience...that these protocols will do nothing to stop an active shooter.  I understand the position the Church is in, I just feel very conflicted, and I'm disappointed that I have been put into such a position to make that choice between protecting those I love and not protecting them.

    There was another thread not that long ago where these same issues were discussed at length...some 15+ pages as I recall.  That being said, I will sustain my leaders in this change.

    Papa...I also want you to know...although I don't post a lot,  I read everyday, and I have always appreciated and taken to heart most, if not all, of the thoughts you've shared.  I thank you!

    • Like 3

  3. On 10/12/2019 at 6:12 PM, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

    Good, like I said, just because someone has a carry permit, does not mean they know what they are doing, or should have one. More importantly, my guess is that Stake Presidents and Bishops will read the letter, or just emphasize the part about not carrying weapons in Church strongly. But in so doing will say little or nothing about how to act in an “active shooter situation”, when people need to know what to do. My family knows that if in public and something starts, if I draw my weapon they are move down and away form the direction I am moving. Too often chaos works in favor of the shooter, when people frezze, or run all over each other, in all directions. So, I pray that they explain the words, “run, hide, and FIGHT”. If I am unarmed, my family also knows to stay with me and behind me at all times, as I will attempt to get them out, or act as cover. 

    Sadly, we don’t give drivers licenses to those who cannot show their ability of the rules and laws, and pass a driving a car. But, to get a concealed carry permit, in most places you just have to pass a background check. You don’t have to show you can use the weapon properly, the laws in your State. You know, the “life and death stuff”. :( 

    Papa...I can appreciate this, but it overlooks the very real possibility of someone who is carrying concealed...and does in fact know what he is doing, and has had the requisite training, and hopefully is in a position to thwart the attack.  I personally do not think its fair to paint the picture that the odds are greater of having someone who is carrying concealed acting like a bumbling/fumbling Barney Fife..when in my experience...the exact opposite has been the case.  The VAST majority of those who I've known over these many years... with  CCP's have, to a person, been responsible, level headed, and trained.

    For me, I will abide by the counsel of my leaders, but I feel these "active shooter protocols" are woefully inadequate to protect anyone in an attack.

    • Like 3

  4. Hmmm...I was born and raised in Independence, Mo.  One of my best friends currently serves as the SP.  I can say this with certainty....1)  I know of no "official" responsibility of the Indep. Mo. Stake being in charge of preparation. Having said that, the members there are extremely mindful of their personal responsibility with respect to the gathering of Israel, and the role Independence/Jackson County is playing and will play in the future of the Church     2)  I do know that the FP is extremely mindful and "hands on" regarding Jackson County.     3)  I do know that the Church has, is and will continue to search for and purchase lands in Jackson County.

    3)   I do know that with respect to actually teaching the Restored Gospel in Jackson County...the Church is really the only Restoration Church in Indep. MO that is actually making significant  progress.  Almost ALL other Restoration Church's represented in Indep. Mo. are so few in numbers...and are mostly very elderly in their demographics, that their influence is negligiable at best.    4)  I do know that there is a GA Liason that reports directly to the FP with respect to all things Jackson County.     5)  I do know that exciting things are happening there, and things are progressing along as they should.

    • Like 3

  5. 5 hours ago, Calm said:

    I appreciate your and Amulek's response and this comment is not judgmental because I honestly am not confident enough in this case about my own judgment, but since for me "common sense" is to not have guns around at this point, appealing to common sense in your argument doesn't make much sense to me.  :)

    IOW, most people assume common sense is some knowledge/opinion held in common with other people.  I don't believe that is accurate in how we often use it.  Instead it is simply something we see as so obvious that we are certain if people understood things like we did, they would see it the same way.

    And Randy, I am sorry if I pushed any buttons with my focus on suicide, if it came across like I thought you were actually ignoring risk.  I know my ability for perception of others is superficial at best through the limited interaction we have, it may look like I am making assumptions about internal, not yet expressed concepts, but I am generally not for the vast majority of posters here.

    Calm...I so appreciate this!  Very much!  When I say speak of "common sense"..I speak of it in the sense of a person taking seriously their responsibility if they choose to carry which to me is 1) TRAINING   2) exercising common sense about where a person finds themselves, ie: Is there "really" a good reason to be out about town at 2am?   3)  Taking common sense precautions based upon your own lifes experiences ie: choosing not have a weapon at all,  or having the weapons locked safely away,  or having the weapon in a place of ready access if something were to happen (based upon who lives in the home..children etc).    I certainly make no judgement as to whether someone should or should not have a weapon in your home if anyone in that home is struggling with their mental health etc.  I can certainly support their decision not to.    I don't want you to think that you were not exercising common sense because your choice/feelings on this subject. I certainly DO understand your position!

    Also, no buttons pushed regarding discussing suicide. It's a difficult subject to talk about, but one that is necessary at times.  I thank you for your thoughtfulness and wanting to make sure I understood. That means a lot to me!  Thank you!

    • Like 2

  6. 3 hours ago, Calm said:

    Sorry for another post on this, but the contrast occurred to me last night and I am finding it hard to understand. 

    Those here who discuss how they choose to conceal carry because they want to be prepared for the unexpected. I so get that. 

    What I can’t get my head around is the low probability of encountering gun violence against oneself or others is so front and center in people’s thoughts and motivations for choice while the possibility of unexpected suicide appears to be distant. 

    Suicide can be “out of the blue”. So why  not prepare for that where possible?  Saying you will lock it up so family can’t get to it is all well and good, but what if it is you that gets hit off balance somehow?


    There have been reliable studies showing when it comes to adolescent death by suicide, storage practices (safe vs less safe) don’t make a difference. 


    ”Brent et al. (1991; 1993b) found no differences in storage practices in homes with adolescents who died by suicide and a comparison group of adolescents living in the community. Dahlberg, Ikeda, and Kresnow (2004) found no association between storage practices and firearm suicide (versus suicide by other means).”

    For context...my father committed suicide when I was 19....his brother as well.  My brother spoke of it often, but was killed in an accident at home.   As I had mentioned earlier in this discussion,  I also drove a Coroners ambulance for 2 yrs...so I've seen first hand the pain, anguish and heartbreak of gun violence in all of its forms.     With all of that experience...I still want to have the ability to protect my family in the best way possible, acting of course within the law.   This is a difficult and multi-faceted  problem to be sure.  But again, given my lifes experience to date...I still choose to carry.    I will stress again....training, training...training!  Common sense..common sense...common sense....and then more training!

    • Like 2

  7. This is true, but it's hard to predict how a crazy person would factor those things into their planning.  Perhaps they would try a direct attack, however, I believe it's more likely that person would direct the attack against those that "support and sustain" those leaders, and since those members are now congregating in "gun free" zones, they are now soft targets.  Again, the bad guys are cowards by nature, thus they will target the unsuspecting and unprotected.

    • Like 1

  8. 10 hours ago, Thinking said:

    I would say that the Church's own newsroom is partially responsible for that fork by publishing articles like this.

    Understood.  My point is this:  As has been said each "number" represents one of HF's children who has accepted the gospel, and that's wonderful.  But again, I do not equate increasing or decreasing "numbers" as being foundational to whether or not the Church is "successful" in it's Mission mandate to proclaim and teach the gospel to all the world.  By any standard, I believe it can be demonstrated that the Church is absolutely meeting that mandate by the Lord.   A person's personal choice of why they choose to accept or reject the gospel is another discussion.

    • Like 2

  9. Again...as tragic as the story that GG told is....it always comes back to training...training...training!   The best safety we have on any weapon "should" be the safety located between our ears.   As I've mentioned early on in this thread,  I will support this policy until such time as I'm convinced the Church/Local leaders have NOT taken positive and common sense steps in order to protect us at Church,  like those proposed earlier by Scott.  That's all I'm asking for. Common sense steps.  When I reach that point, I will reconsider my position in light of my primary responsibility to protect my family.

    • Like 2

  10. 4 minutes ago, Ahab said:

    I have a brother in law who likes guns and has taught his children how to use them, his son and his 4 daughters.  They're all pretty good shots, and all pretty nice people.  And my step mother is pretty good with a pistol too, and a nice person.

    I just don't like guns. I did in the past, but I don't anymore.  Not my thing, anymore.  But if I had to I could use one and be efficient enough with it, either a pistol or a rifle.

    My personal like or dislike is besides the fact that I think most people don't feel comfortable seeing people carrying a gun, though.  In my experience, most people don't like them, and as I said I grew up in Texas where a LOT of people do like them.  But I wouldn't say most.

    Understood...and I respect your position and feelings on this.

  11. 5 minutes ago, Ahab said:

    So if you saw a man walk into a chapel holding a rifle the way I described earlier, what would you do?  I'm imagining others with guns would be getting ready and into position to shoot the guy if necessary.  Or at least yell at him for holding his rifle improperly!

    If I saw a person enter the Chapel with a rifle IN HIS HANDS, and obviously not in any Uniform that would immediately identify him as LEO etc, I would immediately take action.  I would be yelling, but not to him...I would be yelling for the members to get down and take cover.  When it comes to handgun/rifle protocols etc...that person who is entering the Chapel with a gun in the "ready" position should be considered an immediate threat because they're choosing to violate the number one rule of "open carry" and thus have chosen to identify themselves as a lethal threat.

    • Like 1

  12. 2 hours ago, Ahab said:

    Yes that would be the #2 option of the 2 options available, then, wouldn't it, unless you felt like maybe you could run away from him.  He would either be a bad guy or a good guy and you likely wouldn't know he was a bad guy until he got ready to shoot some good people.

    So you would just play the odds, then?  There is still a chance he could be a bad guy.  But yes of course maybe, just maybe, he might turn out to be a good guy.

    Well, maybe I shouldn't have said someone would shoot me and simply said that people who did not know me would probably not be feeling comfortable seeing a man like me walking around with a gun, mostly because it is just a rare sight to see where I live.  It's a small town but it's not like an old west cowboy town where there are a lot of people walking around while they carry a gun.  And I think most people just do not feel very comfortable seeing people walking around with a gun. 

    I may have been a little bit melodramatic, using hyperbolic statements, but my point is that most people, at least where I live, do not feel comfortable seeing people they do not know, who are not wearing a law enforcement uniform, walking around with a gun.

    Is it really any different where you live, for people who don't know you, who might see you walking around with a gun?  Where do you live?  In Texas?

    I grew up in Texas but I live in the Pacific Northwest now, near Portland Oregon if you know where that is.

    Ahab,  I appreciate that you acknowledge that your emotions may have taken a wee bit of control over your expressions. We all have done that a time or two on occasion.  I understand your position, respect it and acknowledge that some people have not had the exposure to guns, and seeing the 2nd Amendment being exercised.   Just know and try to remember this the next time you cross paths with someone who is carrying.  As has been said, the VAST VAST majority of people you see exercising their rights are good, decent and lawabiding fellow citizens, from whom you have nothing to fear.  In that moment, I would challenge and encourage you to approach them and start a conversation with them if the situation allows.  I believe you will find them to be courteous and respectful.


    • Like 1

  13. 2 hours ago, Ahab said:

    Okay, thank you for that clarification.  What about rifles, though?  How does one legally Open Carry a rifle?

    The rife must be strapped/slinged on their back or across their chest... NOT being held in a "ready position" in their hands.

  14. 3 hours ago, ERMD said:

    One way of looking at open carry is that it makes one a target. I personally am not a fan. 

    I can understand this sentiment.  There are some good tactical reasons to choose to open carry, however, it's a personal decision.  I open carry, but not nearly as much as in the past.  One reason being is the irrational fear of some, due in large part by the ever increasing mass shootings.  Depending on where I am going, the season...and what I generally feel about public sentiment at the time..I will choose to "Conceal Carry".  Again, as you know...the purpose is protection of myself and family, as well as my fellow citizens if the situation demands it.  My purpose is not to promote and further encourage irrational fears,  its just the opposite, although at the same time....I am not going to allow someones irrational fears cause me to make changes in how I go about my business/life.

  15. 3 hours ago, Ahab said:

    Yeah, me neither, otherwise I would probably be carrying one to most places I go and then someone who saw me might think I'm a threat and a target and then shoot me simply because they saw that I carried a gun.

    So I understand you correctly....If you go to Walmart with your family,  and I'm there with three of my grandkids, and I'm "Open Carrying"....and we end up in the same toy aisle ...and I'm showing them some cool drones,  are you seriously thinking I am somehow a threat to you and your family??

  16. 4 hours ago, Ahab said:

    Not necessarily bad guys, but that is 1 of the 2 options available.  People dressed in a law enforcement uniform would more likely be among the good guys.  Absent the uniform, though, before committing a crime, how would you know?

    I'm trying to look at the situation from the perspective of someone who doesn't know whether a guy with a gun is a bad guy or a good guy.  A man who just sees another man with a gun, openly carrying it, perhaps getting ready to use it.  A man with a gun in a store, for example. Or a guy carrying a gun into a move theater, for example.  Or a man walking down the street with a rifle or pistol in his hands for who knows what or whatever reason. ???  A guy with a gun can shoot people, you know.  Would you not worry at all until you saw him start shooting? 

    Would you take your children with you into a situation where you saw a man, who you did not know, who was not wearing a law enforcement uniform, who was carrying a gun for who knows what reason?

    So you understand,  to Open Carry means to carry the firearm, HOLSTERED at ALL TIMES, unless....unless, that person feels that their life is in grave danger or eminate death, then..and only then are they lawfully able to draw their weapon in their defense.  In no circumstance does open carry allow the person to hold the weapon in their hands.  It must be holstered, or in the case of a long gun, strapped to the back/chest at all times.

  17. 50 minutes ago, Amulek said:

    Or to help him. The overwhelming majority of people who lawfully carry are impeccable citizens who would only draw their weapon in a public place in order to defend themselves or others.


    Huh? I'm sorry, but this just does not compute. If someone is walking around, lawfully carrying a holstered side arm - not drawing it, not brandishing it, just having it on their person - there is no justifiable reason to shoot that person. Anyone who did something like this would be going to prison for the rest of their life.

    Where on earth do you live? Are people in your town really that paranoid about guns that they would slip into the very kind of farcical 'shoot first, ask questions later' tropes that they likely impute upon 'gun nuts?' 


    Exactly!    Also, it seems that Ahab...with all due respect, has no idea on what "open carry" means.

  18. 2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

    Didn’t work for the Saints in the Cane Creek Massacre. Two missionaries and two members were killed, a sister wounded, but one of the boys who was killed shot and killed the mob leader. More missionaries and members would have died if the Saints has not fought back. 

    I agree!   Way back in the thread I explained that my exercising my faith would be to have the Lord cause my 3" Semi-Auto to be extremely accurate!  I agree with you...we do all we can to prepare practically...and prepare spiritually....when the battle ensues we fight for all we're worth and let the Lord make up the rest if he chooses to.

  19. 4 minutes ago, JAHS said:

    I think we can assume that most people who open carry are not perps. Perps would most likely hide their guns. When I see a person with a open carry, I assume it is associated with whatever job they have.  Back in the late 50's my brothers and I all had open carries. 

    Hahaha!!  THERE YA GO!!  AWESOME!!     The most awesome toy Santa brought me back in 1966 was a "Johnny Seven OMA" machine gun!   OMA=ONE MAN ARMY

    Hmmm...now that I look at this pic a little closer....the lil hombre on the far right seems to have the "look"!

  20. 5 minutes ago, Amulek said:

    And I appreciate that frustration. I truly do. 

    I think what the church is trying to do is just avoid taking on institutional liability for anything that might go wrong in the buildings - similar to what they do with other things such as kitchen use.

    And I suspect they know that determined individuals will not be swayed by anything less than a formal / legal prohibition against carrying on church property. So, you'll have active duty LEOs and stubborn CCers who are armed in the event that anything should ever happen - only the latter will be on their own with respect to liability should something go wrong. 

    I think that's probably fine though. 


    I hear you. As a faithful member, I will continue to attend regardless of whatever my personal opinions may be about policies such as these. 


    Excellent points...and all are taken!!!  

    • Like 1

  21. 17 minutes ago, Ahab said:

    Yeah, them.  If everyone is openly carrying a gun, how am I supposed to know when some guy is about to become a perp... perp is short for perpetrator, right, meaning someone who is committing a crime?

    You're not suggesting I wait to see if he starts to shoot people, are you?  Or that I wait to see if he starts to rob a store?  And until then, what, just stand there looking at him until he gets his gun ready to shoot?

    I'm having a hard time understanding why you're automatically coming at this from "guns equal bad guys" point of view.   Over these many years...you're 58, I'm 62....I have never had an experience when I was choosing to open carry, have I had anyone come up to me and express their concern,  never have I been reported to management...or have had police called on me due to "man with a gun" report.    Just trying to understand the basis for this fear, which to me seems, so far at least...irrational.  

    Perhaps...when I choose to open carry...I look respectable (appearance is important), I do not appear nervous about wearing the weapon, ie; not fidgety, not constantly touching it or rearranging it on my belt. By doing those little things, brings attention to it. People pick up on those things.  So it's important to show that there is nothing going on here..so to speak, not to be self-conscience about it.  I just go about my business.  I talk to people, I don't avoid eye contact with them. Little things.  


    • Like 2

  22. 28 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

    How about a happy medium in which a few qualified individuals are allowed to carry the firearm? That equalizes things somewhat with the bad guy(s) so we are not totally sitting ducks. 

    1)  I wouldn't give it a second thought.

    2) I personally wouldn't give it a second thought, but can understand why others could be uncomfortable with that mode of carry.  Again, COMMON SENSE goes along way.  The person who is openly carrying at Church should probably rethink that decision. I want to promote the 2nd Amendment, not do anything that would cast it in a bad light..as an example: walk into a Walmart with body armour and an AR-15 a week after two mass shootings.  That was stupid with a capital S!  Regardless whether it was legal or not, it was stupid!  That guy did NOTHING to promote the cause. 

    3) Again, I personally would not have an issue with it.  Simply because a person who is openly carrying a firearm does not give me pause for concern regardless of where I see it.

    4) Yes.  Its' their right to do so.  I believe in the right of self protection.  For me personally,  the mode of carry is a personal decision and is based upon several factors. I"m good with whatever decision my fellow citizen makes.

    5) Yes, I probably would be.       I would not understand the basis and reasoning of your fear.


    SORRY...this response was for AHAB!

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