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Everything posted by CV75

  1. Oh yes, thank you! By correcting this oversight, we can clearly see that: (Between Second and Third) An exalted Couple would cease to be an exalted Couple by one of them changed gender thus breaking and invalidating the marriage covenant. Even the two consensually swapping genders would require a dissolution and reinstatement of the covenant and its terms, which would be taboo. (Fourth) The resurrection carries the best of that which has been added upon from the beginning in each sub-estate and stage of eternal progression, including gender from the point at which it was first expressed. The successive proper and perfect frames in the primordial “sub-estates” are retained going forward, and the resurrection answers to all the proper and perfect stages upon which the final proper and perfect frame is built upon and where covenant and other essential characteristics, including gender, are fixed.
  2. I don't know why people aren't up in arms over the Equality Act on the same grounds.
  3. Agreed--but to conceptualize a model (such as I am doing) does not require uniform agreement on a theory; the concept of quantum gravity, whether you agree with it or not, and its application to the topic of the thread, is the same. I wanted to discuss it that way rather than come across as picking apart and refuting your ideas directly, since I took it to be a theoretical discussion. I don't like to approach another's ideas that way. So, I'll try something new: how about instead we go with. "Your ideas need refining!" So regardless of whether you want to consider the idea of quantum gravity or not: First, you have parsed eternal progression into four stages with gender assigned (whether through mutual agreement with heavenly parents or by their divine decree) in stage 2. But eternal progression falls along a continuum, allowing for gender characteristics to be added upon the individual at any point before stage 2, between stage 1 and stage 2, sometime during stage 2, or even at some point between stage 2 and birth. Alma 13 (the premortal foreordaining of high priests) allows for that. Second, "Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose." It is not an eternal principle. As such, its basis is matter/material whether one holds that eternal principles can be comprised of pure and fine matter or not. The qualitative attributes you mentioned in the first bullets are not essential. How often are we encouraged to arrive at perfection by ensuring we prioritize and have the essentials in place -- as God does completely. I would not place gender in this more qualitative ancillary category to an essential characteristic. Third, one feature of an essential characteristic is that you have one side of the opposition or you don't. The opposite of gendered in not "non-gendered" once you have it, but it is each of the two opposing sexes. The opposite of covenant is not-covenant; baptism is not-baptism; there are no gradients or continua. This is reserved for the afterlife kingdoms of glory, where the glory is not related to getting none, some or all of the covenants.
  4. He wasn't the only one to say similar things, and Booker appealed to a Bible verse to justify it!
  5. There's a book about it (The Order of Time, Carlo Rovellli). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_Rovelli No worries. Here's another book by the same physicist, which I haven't read yet: Quantum Gravity (Cambridge Monographs on Mathematical Physics)
  6. Yet quantum mechanics reverts back to gravity being a force again, and this is where I'm coming from. As long as you hold to classical physics, you won't understand the terms I'm using. And if quantum and theoretical physics don't make sense to you, then my description won't either. NOTE: I'm not appealing to physics, just using it as a framework to tell a story.
  7. I did not see this earlier. Progress is a continuum of a "birth" into and a subsequent "death" out of each stage and into the next. In line with the idea of infinitesimally finer and purer yet progressive "begottenings" and "births" into “sub-estates,” gender could have been introduced at any point along the way prior to stage 2 as well. Can God lie? Why would an exalted Couple cease to be an exalted Couple by one of them changing gender and invalidating the marriage? Even swapping genders would require a dissolution and reinstatement of the covenant and its terms. Gender is thus an essential characteristic (the term used in the Family Proclamation) expressed from the resurrection, and the resurrection carries the best of that which has been added upon from the beginning. This would include gender. At some point along the continuum of life progressing from the infinite past, gender becomes incorporated into the proper and perfect frame in one of the primordial “sub-estates” and is retained going forward just as our spirit moves forward in this estate and will continue to in the next spirit world and resurrected estates. But the resurrection still answers to all the stages where the proper and perfect frame gets built upon, and so for covenant purposes these characteristics, including gender, are fixed.
  8. You suggested you were incorporating physics into your paradigm. Yet in physics, force and power are not interchangeable, which you seem to assert. But force is the fundamental result of an interaction between two objects [material things, and all things are material], and power is an expression of [spiritual] energy consumed over time. Force is an element of [spiritual] power, but not the same thing. In addition, classical physics doesn’t work for what I am describing, but quantum and theoretical physics do (e.g. separate two planets far enough, and where does the gravity between them go?). We can only perceive forces and particles – some more fine and pure than others – according to the laws of the sphere upon which we stand. The spheres we occupy, and where God has placed us to act ideally advance in perfection over time, so at some point we perceive more and more eternal principles with greater and greater depth, granularity and utility. This is how gender can be described as a force that we come to understand as our eternal perspective advances. It can be understood to be a force that results from the interaction between two heavenly parents, one male and one female. As we come to understand it, and in concert with God, we use it ourselves in one of the two ways.
  9. I did not use the term “intelligent matter” nor attempt to convey that idea, only that everything (even a force) can be said to be matter on some scale. And I did not say that gender extends into the infinite past; quite the contrary: I suggested: "Once we progress so as to choose an eternal perspective (which can happen as an intelligence/spirit), gender has meaning." So I see no basis in your comprehension of my posts to assess whether there is common ground or not, but it leaves me wondering why you don't engage my actual points even when I proposed ways to support contradicting points (see my original post addressing your bullet questions #3 and #4).
  10. In context of the scriptures (whether taken literally or figuratively), where the animals were dependent upon human decisions and stewardship to define the parameters of action, no.
  11. But it's OK to play along with what we've got...
  12. You appealed to you inner physicist (and allude to quantum and theoretical physics in point 1 above), to which I responded to here: Posted 20 hours ago (edited) ...but haven't heard back from you.
  13. For example, an Exalted Being is a Couple, or even a Family or a Council or a Church of the Firstborn... and so never acts alone, or in a vacuum, or in a self-contradicting manner (God would not cease to be God). Now this is something that was not fully fleshed out in the King Follett Discourse But then, why should it have been, and why should we hold ourselves to that alone?
  14. That's easy: Organ printing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_printing Xenotransplantation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenotransplantation So many other techniques: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_medicine
  15. “the intended meaning of gender in the family proclamation and as used in Church statements and publications since that time is [binary] biological sex at birth.” https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/october-2019-general-conference-first-presidency-leadership-session?cid=HP_NWSRM_10_2_19 I'm assuming he means for general, practical purposes addressing questions that arise during mortality, and not for discussions like these "Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose (per the family proclamation). For this discussion, we can speak of birth in these other spheres, even if not strictly "biological" in the mortal sense. We were born as spirits, can be spiritually reborn of God, we are "born" into the most-mortal spirit world, and "born" again into resurrected bodies -- not all of these are biological processes but each still includes binary gender as an essential characteristic.
  16. I don’t see this as a science discussion, so I think yin-yang and “opposition in all things” are an OK way to begin characterizing what I’m describing. Hopefully you can see that I’ve taken it a little further than that, as speculative as these brainstorming ideas are. I see force to be the result of the interaction between two objects rather than the actor upon them. For example, a physicist may say that a large object “acts” on a smaller one via gravity, but putting a D&C 93 “spin” on it (😉), intelligences act and elements or objects are acted upon. So, I see the power and authority of God, in many cases expressed in concert with the agency of His children, being directed according to His will or allowance upon the elements to bring them together. As the result of interaction between two objects, I see a force as the amalgam of new, finer objects created by that interaction. There is no immaterial matter, and there is always something “more fine or pure” than that which is discernible from the observing sphere of reckoning. I also see God as designing laws and forces out of more fundamental principles (this is getting into theoretical, not classical physics—the former being sweeter to me when I join a theoretical discussion on matters that we are admittedly clueless about). Different laws for different kingdoms, some being eternal. The Family Proclamation says gender is an eternal principle
  17. Excellent point, since the body and spirit in their perfected form are inseparably connected and each possesses the same gender. However, I also think that the binding is more a function of authority (as in priesthood power) than the actual force that exists between spirit element and physical element (at some fundamental level they are comprised of like/coextensive/undifferentiated material).
  18. By "force" I mean something like gravity or magnetism which, when someone has sufficient knowledge, can act upon (at least harness and use as a tool). Until then, they are acted upon by these forces. These forces at a finer levels can reveal, depending on the perspective (as in being able to see or discern matter that is more fine and pure) other, additional forces, or even manifest as an alternative force altogether. For example, the finer makeup of a quantum of time might exhibit a condition of "no-time" at all, or perhaps time flowing backward. So I'm suggesting that gender is a force like gravity and magnetism are, which also display phenomena in terms of attraction.
  19. Just some initial thoughts: · If an Exalted Being wants to change the physiological gender of their resurrected body, is that possible? An exalted being is a male-female couple and would not lie. · Why has Eternal and Celestial Society chosen a gender binary mechanism? It is part of the eternal round (it works toward a fulness of joy, and is the way an exalted being -- couple -- holds to the opposing forces of male and female.) · If gender existed before our spirit body, what does "gender" mean for a something that has no body? It is a force which manifests or expresses itself according to one’s perspective (i.e. reckoning from where they stand). · If gender did not exist before our spirit body, what was the mechanism whereby our Heavenly Parents chose a gender? It is a force which manifests or expresses itself according to one’s perspective (i.e. reckoning from where they stand). Is that an immutable choice? No, but only up to a point of progressing perspective. Once we progress so as to choose an eternal perspective (which can happen as an intelligence/spirit), gender has meaning.
  20. Some immediate thoughts: 1. There was no presidency (presiding council) for John to work with (see D&C 107:24, 29), and this is a necessity for the Church organization. 2. Refers to the post-resurrection ("world without end") Church of the Firstborn. 3. Convenient but controversial--someone else may provide this detail. If bishops were appointed to keep things together, it would be largely a temporal responsibility relating to the lesser priesthood. Some will say that the lesser priesthood was still on earth but dormant in some respect (if the holders knew nothing of the sacrament for example) through the lineage of Aaron but once there was no presiding high priest to this fell away also until the Restoration (D&C 107: 16, 17). 4. This pertains to the Restored Church, preventing what happened to the Primitive Church. John 12:24 indicates that the apostasy in the meridian of time had to occur before the restoration in the fulness of times in order for greater things to come of it. The lack of this "robust quorum succession" in a way was a guarantee of death, which of course Christ would overcome in the last dispensation. 5. See #1 – an inspired man does not require keys, and one man does not a presidency make.
  21. Keys are all that ever really mattered, and ever will! They are the fundamental basis and means for doing anything in the kingdom by proper authority. And there are also priesthood orders and priesthood endowment to consider in addition to the priesthood keys and priesthood office. No one -- man, woman or child -- is forced to participate (or to allow their child to participate) as invited if they feel slighted.
  22. Yes, I understand that is how the earlier saints saw things. But the spiritual underpinning of all the biblical and restoration prophecies is that spiritual phenomena (foretold or generated in the present circumstance) are fulfilled as literal events. This a message in the Book of Mormon that we as a community have had 200 years to absorb (all things are spiritual). This is my personal understanding today. I think identifying descendants (i.e. family history, including DNA studies and related technologies) is a form of gathering on both sides of the veil, as is the dynamic of turning the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers*. Israel is a matter of both lineage and adoption as well. * The Book of Mormon and Old Testament use the singular “heart” and the post-restoration D&C uses the plural “hearts.” Perhaps “heart” is for the gathered condition and “hearts” refers to the scattered and gathering conditions. Hard to say which is first and which is last (they seem to interchange in gospel principles), but the sealing of separate family histories into “a whole and complete and perfect union” seems to be what is prophesied in the D&C. Tribal assignments would still apply for the priesthood order (land, kingdom and ecclesiastical organizations), with restored representation for each in the land of Jerusalem, and lands of inheritances replicated for them throughout the rest of the earth as well.
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