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CV75

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CV75 last won the day on March 5 2016

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About CV75

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  1. No one is saying that you aren’t happy with your read of it. But perhaps our exchange is an example of “missing some great meaning and application of scripture by not being open to reading it” as other class participants might (the “welfare of our souls” material is presented in the text a certain way, which is significant whether the book is or isn't what it claims to be), which I take to be the point of your OP. Mine was a simple request, and if this were a classroom setting, a great opportunity for you to share the Book of Mormon’s teachings on the particular matter that you think is important to your salvation, which from the OP, seems to be that someone become open to reading the Book of Mormon as myth, metaphor, or not historical.
  2. If you are referring to History of the Church, 5:423, he says “Ordinances…” not “All ordinances…” The only ordinance in the sense of being a rite discussed in the following pages was baptism of the dead. Principles and laws of the priesthood are also discussed, but in the sense of being ordinances in the sense of being decrees. Page 423: “It was the design of the councils of heaven before the world was, that the principles and laws of the priesthood should be predicated upon the gathering of the people in every age of the world. … Ordinances [principles and laws] instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles.” Page 424: “One of the ordinances of the house of the Lord is baptism for the dead. God decreed before the foundation of the world that that ordinance [that specific rite] should be administered in a font prepared for that purpose in the house of the Lord.”
  3. It's not a matter of convincing; that is clearly a personal choice. But show me where, in the scriptures, the term "welfare of our souls" is used in connection with the prophets expounding on the "difficult issues of faith," especially since the Book of Mormon was was written for our day, Moroni saw our doings, etc.
  4. The only tangible ordinances I can think of that aren’t subject to alteration by the Lord’s servants would be 1) baptism for the dead, since it is the only ordinance mentioned in scripture as “instituted from before the foundation of the world” (D&C 124:33); and 2) marriage since it was instituted before the Fall and carried into this world. The intangible laws, which on the other hand are innumerable, were also instituted before the foundation of the world (D&C 132: 5). Every other tangible conveyance of divine power seems to have been instituted according to the Lord’s instructions in this world according to the circumstances and demands of the dispensation, time and place; the objects and protocols involved are necessary only for that dispensation, time and place, and these are revealed through the prophets. The laws are observed by the prophets in the conveyance of divine power according tot he keys they possess, even though their form and manner of expression may change.
  5. Hang up? Is that code for you don’t want to be bothered with a messy issue? If the Book of Mormon prophets have uniquely defined and addressed that which does pertain to "the welfare of our souls" (a phrase you seem to have appropriated as a mantra) and not just “anything a person feels or thinks and sees as important to his/her salvation,” doesn’t that ease one’s expectation that his view of scripture as “myth, metaphor, or not historical” be validated, to the point of pinning his salvation on it?
  6. The Savior did teach many things, that’s for sure. While not everyone is interested in or believes in every teaching, I think He publicly taught in a way that granted every one of His teachings fair play and encouraged His followers to bear with Him and their fellow disciples in the process. I think Part 2 in the manual captures how we can best emulate Him in that regard. The manual also touches on using parables (p. 22); the priorities of what topics to teach (p. 20 and Part 3); and how to introduce a ministering component into the class setting (the whole of Parts 1 and 4) so that those who need comfort are encouraged and taught how to obtain it, and those who need to repent are invited to do so.
  7. I think it depends on one’s definition of “welfare of our souls.” If the Lord is saying “redemption (and the rest of the list Posted 22 hours ago (edited)” is paramount to the welfare of our souls (per the Book of Mormon) and a member is saying no, it’s "[item(s) from my list]” then there may be a rub, especially if he considers the Book of Mormon “good.” How do you define “welfare of our souls”? Do you see a difference between “working our way through the welfare of our souls” and the phrasing, “working out our salvation”?
  8. I think service by missionaries is certainly an important part of their toolbox, especially where formal proselyting beyond the chapel setting is outlawed.
  9. But I'm sure you agree with D&C 88: 118, 122-125 which dovetails with the key principles taught in the manual is a great pace to start in relating well with others in the classes and quorums. The very basic counsel in these verses might help avoid selective attention in discovering what the manual has to offer. From the Preface, I think it is good to recognize that "The goal of every gospel teacher—every parent, every formally called teacher, every home teacher and visiting teacher, and every follower of Christ—is to teach the pure doctrine of the gospel, by the Spirit, in order to help God’s children build their faith in the Savior and become more like Him." I think students share that responsibility in how they share to edify each other. I see this when substituting "teach" with "learn" in the principles described in the manual. From the Introduction, "When you think about the Savior’s way of teaching, what comes to mind?"
  10. I think Teaching in the Lord's Way helps people not get stuck in the box(es) you describe, no matter the perspective, and places the principles at the forefront. That way, everyone has something to contribute if they are willing. "And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith ...that when all have spoken that all may be edified of all, and that every man may have an equal privilege. See that ye love one another; cease to be covetous; learn to impart one to another as the gospel requires. Cease to be idle; cease to be unclean; cease to find fault one with another; cease to sleep longer than is needful; retire to thy bed early, that ye may not be weary; arise early, that your bodies and your minds may be invigorated. And above all things, clothe yourselves with the bond of charity, as with a mantle, which is the bond of perfectness and peace.” (D&C 88: 118, 122-125). I invite you to get a copy of that manual and study it with the above counsel in mind, and bring what you've gained to the classes so that you can effectively discuss Book of Mormon principles from the perspective you feel is most edifying.
  11. The consecrated oil may well have healing properties; we are only instructed not to apply it or squirt it, regardless of what we believe. Do you use it as the early saints did, and does it work? In using it in a manner contrary to current priesthood instruction, whose authority is being recognized, and what or whose power is being drawn? I'll have to disagree about the "we" in your statements, as I know plenty of people who do believe these things. The power is in the priesthood, the forms are in the keys and how they are directed to be used, and the intent is both the Lord's and ours, as an expression of both parties' will and faith in the priesthood, the keys and Him.
  12. This is how I see it. But historicity is not one of the truths supporting the welfare of our souls, at least according to the Book or Mormon, which is accepted as containing truth by both those who hold it to be historical and those who do not. So discussions in classes and quorums rightly focus on those truths, the common denominator defining the community. Those with special interest can find special venues in either direction but come together on the Lord's day.
  13. It depends on the issue. If the Lord is saying “redemption (and the rest of the list)” is paramount to the welfare of our souls and a member is saying no, it’s "[item(s) from my list]” then the member isn’t really listening as he would be listened to, especially if he considers the Book of Mormon “good.” I think he needs to avail himself to what the Book of Mormon actually says is good for the welfare of his soul. And if he determines that "historicity" is paramount anyway, then at least he's made an informed choice.
  14. I think "Teaching in the Savior's Way" https://www.lds.org/manual/teaching-in-the-saviors-way?lang=eng engenders compassion in responding to people who are struggling with whatever they bring up. I think it would be helpful for those who have general concerns with how they or other struggling class participants are treated to refer to this manual and work with the priesthood or auxiliary leader if negative incidents arise.