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Mormon Dude

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  1. That's not what I said, unless you're claiming that God has commanded Latter-day Saints not to acknowledge that sometimes early Saints broke the law.
  2. It's all semantics. Illegal immigrants, invaders, "without permission," whatever you call it, the laws I linked to are clear. And when they're broken, there is nothing wrong with calling said action "illegal." Things were very different in the 1800s versus 1066 and 75 BCE, so who is calling the kettle black? While Mexico was not able to hold on to their claim, said claim (which was legally recognized by the US in the Treaty of Limits) was not legally extinguished until the 1848 Treaty of Guadalupe. In my OP I pointed out even the US Supreme Court indicated "Deseret" belonged to Mexico until 1848. US laws cannot be applied ex post facto onto territory that was not theirs.
  3. What made a Mexican? Weren't the American Indians, known as Indios in the Spanish caste system recognized and given some rights?
  4. This isn't a moral question, but a historical/legal one. I have no doubts the Saints had no qualms breaking the law when they felt they had a higher moral (aka religious) cause to do so. The decades of polygamy practice proves that. It seems odd today's Saints have no trouble accepting that Saints broke some major laws with their practice of polygamy, but it is clearly taboo to mention that Mormon Pioneers may have illegally immigrated to Mexico.
  5. I'd like to know where. I can't find any discussion of the legality of their settlement, other than a few people arguing against current US immigration polices with the blanket statement that they (the Pioneers) didn't have permission to do so. That's very different from actually discussing the legal question. You're not wrong, but I would argue "might" is still the basis for our laws. If you don't have the might to back them up, they are essentially meaningless. But, having said that, just because you have the might to break a law does make it right. A gang might have the might to rob someone on the street and they could never be caught, but that might didn't make what they did right. To flip the tables of the Saints, the mobs certainly had the might to do what they did in Missouri or Illinois. Does that make what they did right? Or legal? No, because by the 1800s laws were on the books. Long before 1847, there were a number of laws on the books in Mexico prohibiting most immigration from the US. And the US also had a recognized border with Mexico; first by way of the 1819 Adams–Onís Treaty, and later after the Mexican revolution by way of the Treaty of Limits. I mean, we're talking 1847, not the year 847. One can hardly argue the Mexican government had abandoned the areas north of today's current border, but rather they were in the middle of a war defending a massive claim of land. Yes, their resources were located elsewhere. But like today, just because the US Border Patrol can't have an agent on every foot of the border doesn't mean they've abandoned it.
  6. Yep. There have been a number of recent letters to the editors of newspapers along with protesters claiming this in the past few weeks. For example, Mormon pioneers were Utah’s first undocumented immigrants I wouldn't post anymore links, as they get into today's politics too much and that's not what this thread is about.
  7. Given the current political immigration situation in the US and the Pioneer Day holiday in Utah, I've been hearing a lot about the legality of the pioneers' arrival in the Salt Lake Valley, which was in Mexico in 1847. It is not hard to find "Mormon friendly" sources that indicate the Saints settled without permission from Mexican authorities–which just seems to be a euphemism for illegally settled. I understand that church leadership made sure to get permission from the Native Americans before establishing Winter Quarters, but is anyone aware of church leadership making sure to get permission before settling in what would become Utah? There were a number of Mexican laws on the books which prohibited Americans from settling in Mexico, required proper documentation before crossing the border, and even outlawed any religion but Catholicism. These include: Decreto y Reglamento para la admisión de extranjeros, 13 Feb 1823 Ley de colonización, 6 Apr 1830 Constitution of Mexico, 4 Oct 1824 By 1847 the illegal immigration of Americans into Mexico (which had been on going for decades) had reached the point that the two countries were at war, so I don't think the Saints could claim they just didn't know Mexico was opposed to any additional Americans settling in their lands. Did the Saints simply follow the crowd and ignore Mexico's legal authority over their territory? The only counter claim I have found to the Saints being illegal is that Alta California had already been "captured" by the US before July 1847, but that's a sketchy claim to me. In the US Supreme Court's 1890 Late Corp. of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints v. United States case, the court's opinion regarding legal authority in the early Utah area was: "Deseret, or Utah, had ceased to belong to the Mexican government by the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo" The treaty was signed in February 1848 and it's clear the Supreme Court considered Deseret to be part of Mexico until the treaty, regardless of other claims. I am sure Mexico considered it their own until the treaty as well. While the majority of Saints arrived after 1848, those first few wagon companies certainly arrived before the treaty. This is an interesting question that hasn't been explored much. Does anyone have additional insight into the issue? Especially the question of seeking permission to settle from Mexico? And could we consider Brigham Young one of the most famous illegal immigrants in history?
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