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california boy

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About california boy

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    Looks for truth over dogma

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    I like to listen to others that share different beliefs than me. I try to respect those differences, but will also challenge those beliefs to sort out truth from dogma. I feel that people have often let religious dogma overshadow the basic message of Christ. I adhere to simple truths. Love God, love others, let God judge and worry about my own faults.

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  1. No not at all. I want to dispel the notion that you seem to have that BY was completely against alcohol at some point in his life. I want to point out that the obedience to the WoW as the church lives it today is not the same as it was during BY's time and long after he died. I want to dispel the idea that BY was as clear cut adamant against alcohol as you seem to want to present. You stated that the quote clearly outlines BY views on alcohol. Obviously it is much more nuanced than that. The wine industry that he started lasted into the 1920's. So it is not like he changed his mind in his later years and shut down the production of wine in Southern Utah.
  2. Because the flip side of Brigham Young is his establishment of the wine industry in Southern Utah, and the whisky distillery. And the fact that he would have wine with his meals. We did quite an exploration of this on one of these WoW threads just a couple of weeks ago. So which BY do you believe is the real BY? One statement is a whole lot less convincing than the amount of work BY went to in order for wine to be a significant industry in the Utah economy under his watch. And a significant part of the culture of the members drinking it not only to celebrate special events like weddings and holidays, but as part of their meals and social gatherings in the southern part of Utah. BY himself would have wine with some of his meals.. You can't really. have it both ways can you???? It is completely wrong to suggest that members of the church including BY did not drink alcohol in the early days of the Church. There is way too much contrary evidence to suggest that the Church and BY was strongly opposed to drinking alcohol. If you want all of the documentation on this, just look at the WoW thread. a couple of weeks ago.
  3. Then I don’t quite understand why you directed that to me???
  4. I am not talking about homosexuality. I am saying that technology and understanding of Greek and Latin may very well be better today than it was during the time of kKing James. So why think that the KJV is superior translation of the Bible to all other versions?
  5. Show me where I implied that the "scholar thesis" is something I share. As I have stated, I have no idea who is right and who is wrong. It is funny. You think that because I am gay, I might be prejudice to this interpretation. Yet are you willing to acknowledge that because you are not homosexual, it is easy for you to consider homosexuality a sin? The way you interpret the scripture you quoted is also just your interpretation. It actually contradicts your interpretation. This is contained in a letter written the the Ephesians. It is saying that apostles and prophets will continue until we all come to a unity of the faith. Did that happen? Did apostles and prophets continue? You seem to have made a strong case for the Catholic Church here, and disproved the idea of a restoration. So yeah, even this scripture that you use has been twisted slightly to suit your own interpretation.
  6. 1. So what makes the KJV of the Bible the correct translation? Were the men under King James more schooled to read Greek or other earlier Bible writings? Scholars have found many errors in their translations. Did they have all of the resources we have today? Why does the KJV get a free pass in your mind. or the Church's for that matter. Is it possible that modern translators have a better understanding of Greek or some of the other earlier Bible writings? 2. Straight forward? Really? Should women ever wear make up? Jewelry? Pray in church? Cover their hair? The KJV seems pretty straight forward about those issues. I could give you literally hundreds of Bible points that people don't agree on. 3. I don't disagree that the pain of repentance is necessary to rid a person of sin. The question is, what is sin according to God and what is sin according to men. And maybe, as it relates to this subject on a personal level, let's say that the Church has it all figured out. A gay person has to be celibate throughout this life. Then what happens in the next life? Does the Church really have that part of the plan all figured out? Can a person who chooses to have companionship in this life ever repent? And if eventually they repent, then what? Do they "get" to be married to a woman for eternity? Tell me exactly what according to God, my fate will be if I only do what every other human desires to do, find someone to share this life with. Since family is the core of the Plan of Salvation, it is a sin to want to have a family? And is it my fault that I am gay and how that family looks to me? Are you still so sure that what you wrote is the will of God? Because I am not. I am with my companion, not to go against God or rebels against Him, but because I believe there are certain lessons we only learn by being with another person, sharing a life with, supporting and taking care of someone other than ourselves, learning to put others needs in front of our own. I am doing my best to follow what I believe is the path that God wants me on. Can you positively tell me I am on the wrong path?
  7. My takeaway is that whoever reads these seven scriptures will interpret them to mean what they want them to mean. I don't have a position. Any interpretation could possibly be right. All could possibly be wrong. The Bible doesn't present a clear answer to anything. There is not even a clear understanding how we got the Bible. Were these men that wrote the Bible speaking for God? Or, like some statements by modern prophets, were they men of their own time. In the end, each of us have to trust God. Put our faith in Him. If you believe in God, then you have to believe He will guide you. Scriptures only give us the things to pray about.
  8. THAT is the point. Every person who reads scriptures believes that THEY know what side God is on.
  9. I guess that depends on who thinks their interpretation of the Bible is the correct interpretation. Battles have been fought over who was right and who was wrong. One church has persecuted another church over who is following the Bible teachings correctly to the point of killing people for a different point of view. And it still goes on today. Maybe these few scriptures on homosexuality does mean what the Church thinks it means. But maybe these scriptures mean what other religions and other Biblical scholars think it means as has been outlined in this thread. Those that have a different belief are usually unwilling to even consider a different point of view. How many members even bothered to read the scholar thesis on these scriptures and carefully considered them? They know they are right and everyone else who disagrees with their interpretation is flat out wrong.. Basic teachings of Christ have been thrown under the bus by individuals and religion when someone has an agenda to pursue. I personally am not really impressed when people use their Bible to "prove" their teachings are righteous when in doing so they fail to treat others in any way that Christ would recognize as what He was trying to teach. It all becomes pretty irrelevant when you start baring little children from baptism or similar actions. Then who has the correct interpretation and who doesn't becomes kind of irrelevant imo.
  10. I feel a bit uncomfortable that I might be derailing this thread. That wasn't my intention.
  11. I know this is crazy thinking, but gay marriage is legal. And some crazy members of the church think that sex inside of marriage is not immoral. The Church refuses to recognize those marriages as being real marriages. A lot of members believe that just because you are gay doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to find someone to marry and share a life with. So there is the conflict for a lot of members. And there is the core of the countless threads that pop up like Whack-a-Moles.
  12. Except there is more and more acceptance of sex outside of marriage in the world today as well. You don't see multiple threads on sex outside of marriage for straight people. I think it is pretty clear that a lot of members are struggling with the way the Church handles LGBT issues. No one seems to be struggling with the Church's position on sex outside of marriage for straight people.
  13. I probably worded the adultery statement badly. But yes. people do agree with how the Church handles adultery, but seems unsettled on. the position the Church has taken on LGBT issues. Something just seems wrong on LGBTissues to a lot of people. So the debate keeps going back and forth.
  14. I don't think people are saying God is wrong. I think what people are saying is the Church leaders have it wrong. There is a LONG history of Church leaders being wrong on this issue. Even their views are nothing like they were 20 years ago. The only constant is Church leaders believe you can't be with someone of your own sex, married or not. The Bible can be used to prove anything is either right or wrong. Name a subject and both sides of any opinion can be supported by the Bible. People have used to Bible to support slavery, genocide, murder, you name it. So picking apart certain verses is not going to change anyone's view on anything, imo. The only way I believe you can find what God wants for you is for you is to have a relationship with Him. The question I have is, "Why are there so many threads about LGBT issues on a Mormon site? " It seems like this is one issue that there are a lot of uncomfortable feelings about what might be right and what might be wrong. We certainly don't have many threads on adultery. In the eyes of the Church, they are both moral sins. One, everyone seems to be ok with. The other goes on for pages and pages. And almost every single thread on homosexuality is started by a member of the Church.
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