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california boy

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About california boy

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    Looks for truth over dogma

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    I like to listen to others that share different beliefs than me. I try to respect those differences, but will also challenge those beliefs to sort out truth from dogma. I feel that people have often let religious dogma overshadow the basic message of Christ. I adhere to simple truths. Love God, love others, let God judge and worry about my own faults.

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  1. california boy

    Oaks on Religious Freedom

    As long as you continue to mischaratize what Elder Oaks actually said, then yes I am going to call you out. It is interesting that you give me no credit for the acknowledgement of what Elder Oaks has said that is a step in the right direction. Is that acting in bad faith also?
  2. california boy

    Oaks on Religious Freedom

    I want to talk about what you wrote in depth a bit. Basically what you are agreeing to is that at no other time do you ever recall a church leader or Elder Oaks in particular ever saying that if a person is immoral, then employers should have the right to discriminate against them. It is only homosexuals that he is advocating discriminating against. Can you imagine how offensive that is for a church leader to even suggest that it would be a good thing to discriminate against me simply because I am gay? I get that you are trying to sugar coat what Elder Oaks is saying. But what you suggest is NOT what he said. He is indeed advocating for discrimination against gays. These are his exact words with no filters put on by you or me. There is nothing about immorality in that statement. There is ONLY a blanket call to discriminate against homosexuals. So just because I am gay, I shouldn't be allowed to have a voice in society. Do you think I should not be highly offended by a church leader calling for employers right to fire me or not hire me simply because I am gay? ABSOLUTELY NOT. I don't agree with everyone's views, but our society is weakened when we try to silence those that we disagree with. Do you know why I think gay marriage is legal today in this country? Because for several years after Prop 8 passed and before gay marriage was legal, there were constant debates on news programs disculling this issue with both sides being represented. The country heard BOTH points of view. The result? People that supported gay marriage moved from around 30% to a 60% majority. That would not have happened if either side had been silenced. Every teacher that is fired because they are gay' every valedictorian that is denied the opportunity to speak at their high school graduation because they are gay, every marriage license denied because they are gay moves society forward towards understand how wrong discrimination is. I don't even mind groups such as Westboro Baptist Church from doing their hate-filled public displays. It is just another religion claiming that God hates gays. They just do it more aggressively than most churches. I think this was a major step forward and I have stated that repeatedly. This kind of tone is much more in keeping with what I believe to be how the Savior wants us to treat others and what this country stands for. Discrimination is not an American value. The church is welcome to form any exclusionary policies towards gays within their church that they see fit to impose. That is their right I believe under the constitution of this country. But I hope that the church would be at least open to allowing equality for gays in the public and respect Accommodation laws and the Civil Rights laws that have served this country well for the past 50 years.
  3. california boy

    Oaks on Religious Freedom

    How about if that someone like President Nelson who declared the Oct policy to be a revelation. Does that make it a revelation from God in your opinion?
  4. california boy

    Oaks on Religious Freedom

    I didn't limit an example of similar excluding from employment because of perceived sin to this one.talk. You have a whole lifetime of speeches and talks given by Elder Oaks to prove your point that he doesn't just target discriminating against LGBT from employment. So point us to similar speeches where he advocated discriminating from employment others that are immoral in the eyes of the church. Cause right now it looks like his typical pattern of targeting only the gay community.
  5. Open a tread. I have plenty to say about. how you characterize those that support the rights of all Americans including those that are gay.
  6. Open a thread. I have plenty to say on how you villainize those that support the civil rights of the gay community.
  7. Oh please. This protest against the church is no different than any normal nonviolent protest that goes on regularly in this country. Claiming the public sidewalk in front of the temple is on temple grounds is another inflamed and inaccurate characterizations. No threats of violence were made. No near riot occurred. Absolutely ZERO arrests were made. No one was harmed in any way. Those that support the civil rights of the gay community have the right to protest the horrific actions of the church. They did so in a peaceful manner that the law allows. It is nothing like the inflamed ""barely-contained and hate-filled riots" that SMAC characterized this protest says to gin up those that don't think gays should be allowed to live their lives as they see fit and the laws of this country allow. Well, guess what Scott, YOU AND THE CHURCH DO NOT HAVE CONTROL OF WHO I LOVE AND WHO I WANT TO LIVE MY LIFE WITH. And YES, those that support equal rights for the gay community do in fact also have the right to peacefully protest in front of the temple on public sidewalks against an institution that wants to suppress those constitutional rights. To continue to think that you and the church that you belong to can dictate those civil rights is beyond yours and the church's control. Thank God. And you wonder why I and so many others have lost respect for the church. You wonder why so many millennials are leaving the church. You wonder why so many faithful members are leaving this institution whose actions against the gay community the can no longer support. You wonder why more and more people are unwilling to listen to this "gospel" of discrimination. Did the church not learn anything on how it discriminated against Blacks? In the long run, it is the church and its members that loose. If you want to talk about this more, open a thread. I have plenty to say on this subject.
  8. california boy

    Oaks on Religious Freedom

    If Elder Oaks had his way, there would have never been a Michaelangelo or Leonardo Da Vinci or Andy Warhol, or a Rock Hudson or Oscar Wilde or Elton John or George Michael or Ralph Waldo Emerson or Gore Vidal or Truman Capote or Leonard Bernstine or Walt Whitman or Tennessee Williams or Jodie Foster or Noél Coward or, or, or, Thank God that Elder Oaks and the church doesn't get to decide who should work and who should be silenced.
  9. california boy

    Oaks on Religious Freedom

    This is what one person thinks about how the church spends it's money and how it is taxed. Not sure if he is accurate on what the church pays taxes on, but certainly what the church spends it's money on seems accurate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldi2hiK84oo
  10. Because we all know the gay community does not get to exercise their right of free speech? Your arrogance in thinking that the church should be able to control the gay community to bend to it's dogma without protest is astounding. When you intentionally enflame and demonize what actually happened because they had the audacity to protest against the church's involvement in taking away their civil right to marry the person they love. How dare they. Don't they know that they are all apostates for wanting to marry the person they love. And now I am once again reminded of why I no longer wish to respond to your posts. You have nothing but contempt for the gay community and do all you can to mischaracterized and demonize them as well as what I actually post. You really expect the LGBT community to roll over and not protest the travesty of their civil rights? Unbelieveable. At some point you are going to grow up and realize that the church can not just do whatever it wants without considering that some people might strongly disagree with what the church is doing. This was a peaceful protest, noting like the "barely-contained and hate-filled riots" you tried to make it out to be. Your little personal jab at me that has derail this thread has gone on long enough. I stand by my statement
  11. You've done nothing of that sort? Did you forget this little diatribe against me and the gay community? Now look at the video and see if your diatribe has any accuracy to it. To say you have not gone after me or the gay community is just not true. You so distorted what actually happened in front of the temple and what I said about it just to further your agenda against the gay community and me personally.
  12. Yes you did misunderstand what I wrote. I am not advocating for all church courts to be recorded and publicized. I am advocating for the right of the person being put on trial to have the choice to record the proceedings if they so wish. These people who have recorded their disciplinary hearings all think that what they have done is not an excommunicating act. They want the public to know why the church thinks they should be excommunicated and let those following their situation to judge just how fair that verdict is. Otherwise, is all those following their situation get is the verdict and not the justification the church used.
  13. Yes I have lost a lot of respect for the church for how it treats those in the gay community. And yes I have lost a lot of respect for you as well for how you attack the gay community to the point that I don't even like to respond to your posts. But that has nothing to do with my comment. As far as I can tell, your argument for not allowing the person on trial to allow total transparency by recording the proceedings as to how they have been treated is because by allowing them to record the proceedings all sanctity and decorum would vanish? Just how does that happen? Do you feel all sanctity and decorum vanishes when General Conference is recorded? It is more than ironic that you yourself relied on the recorded transcript concerning claims that the High Counselor comment about the church having no integrity. Would you have been able to dispute that comment without the actual recording of the excommunication proceedings. Bill didn't object to transparency. It is the church that objects.
  14. california boy

    Oaks on Religious Freedom

    This is NOT about sin. This is about targeting the gay community. If it was about sin then Elder Oaks remarks would have stated ":It would also be desirable to permit employers of all immoral people from influential positions in media, literature, and entertainment since those jobs influence the tone and ideas of society." If you commit adultery, you are out of a job. If you are an unwed mother, you are out of a job. If you are living together without marriage, you are out of a job. Has anyone ever heard any general authority make any statements of this kind? Don't tell me it is not about attacking the gay community unless you can show that the church position on discriminating against immorality is universal. What he is saying is outrageous. What you are saying is outrageous. Being attracted to the same sex is NOTHING LIKE being a white supremacists. You make it so easy for me to dislike this church and what it stands for. You make it easy for an entire generation to dislike this church and what it stands for.
  15. california boy

    Oaks on Religious Freedom

    You want to know why no religion is the fastest growing religious group in America by huge margins? You want to know why people are fleeing organized religion in record numbers? You want to know why religion is becoming irrelevant? You want to know why so many people think religion is evil? You want to know why the Mormon church is the least liked Cristian religion in America? IT IS THIS. Claims that those who speak for God justifies their prejudices against others. In the past it was Jews, blacks, Chinese etc that religion justified discrimination against. Today it is LGBT that certain organized religions crusade against. People are no longer buying their prejudice as coming from God. They have been tricked too many times before. Every single young person who leaves the church because of how the church campaigns against the LGBT community, every faithful member who leaves over the church policies against gay families, every investigator that slams the door when the missionaries show up preaching the gospel of discrimination, everyone of these people that walk away from the church are walking away from a church that they can no longer support or believe that God is somehow involved. And thank goodness so many are walking away from this kind of treatment towards other children of God. If religion looses influence and good standing in the community, it is by their own immoral actions.