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Maestrophil

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About Maestrophil

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    SugarHouse, UT

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  1. This might deserve its own thread, but I will ask here anyways since it is related to the idea of an 'unorthodox testimony.' What is the standard for that kind of testimony? I have always held that as long as you can answer the temple recommend interviews, you are meeting the standard of belief to be a solid member and have nothing to be ashamed about or worried about. The questions don't contain anything specifically about the BOA, location of the BOM or its historicity, age of the Earth, Mother in Heaven, etc. But not being able to answer the TR questions to me does put one at odds with the 'orthodoxy'... Thoughts
  2. By no means am I saying that this was the only reason they voted to go - in fact, as I stated, I admire their eagerness to get to Zion and their faith - but I cannot help but think that the strong stance of leaders to go influenced them. Nothing is simple and black and white - as I stated before. 🙂 I think all involved were doing what they thought best - and the results were tragic - but the faith, strength and courage involved by the handcart members is to lauded IMO
  3. I often wonder - given God's apparent ability to be OK with some sexual things that seem hard for me to accept - polygamy, concubines, etc. - if one of our big trials here is the emphasis we have on the appetite for sex. I wonder if the very fact that we are so worried about it here is not just one big obstacle to us becoming more god-like, and if, in the eternities, it won't be so much about who we are attracted to as much as who we choose to covenant with. For instance, I have a hard time thinking God would look at a woman (or man), and have the kind of thoughts we often have such as "wow! what a sexually attractive/hot person". I am not saying those thoughts are wrong for us as mortals, as long as we keep them in check - but I wonder if part of becoming exalted is losing them in favor of a more universal love and compassion.
  4. Correct - they voted in favor with the knowledge firmly impressed on them that their leaders wanted them to go - and saw what happened to Bro Savage when he dissented. Levi Savage was the man who served my 3Xg grandfathers his last meal. He is mentioned in the movie you reference too. On my mission, I had the privilege to serve with and Elder Savage, who was a descendant of Levi - it was really cool to have the ancestors fo two men who shared such a friendship in the handcart companies.
  5. I think this is a perfect example of human tendency to use black and white thinking. Can the handcart situation be both an example of faith, sacrifice, and triumph AND an illustration of fallibility, tragedy, and error? I believe it can. My 2nd great-grandfather died in the Willie handcart company leaving his wife and three kids to come into the SL Valley alone. While I think there was some error and naiveté in the leader's decisions to have the saints in the Willie Company leave so late in the season - I don't think it was malicious - and I find great inspiration and strength in the example of faith and desire to serve and obey shown by my family those many years ago - and I praise them for all the blessings I have enjoyed living in a beautiful state, free to practice the faith of my fore-fathers unmolested. I celebrate the handcart pioneers, and bristle when anyone tries to reduce their legacy to that of a bunch of hapless victims of poor church leadership.
  6. Just like with gay marriage - I say that government should stay out of the marriage business. That said, if love is love, and any two consenting adults can be married as long as they are not harming anyone else - then why not several consenting adults?
  7. I would have to find something I have not yet encountered that fed me more spiritually and intellectually than the gospel as taught by The Latter-day Saints. I think I would be pretty agnostic if my faith as an active Latter-day Saint crumbles - bordering on atheistic and slightly depressed.
  8. Out of my Two siblings and my two parents - I am the only member left. Same story as I have heard here. Pioneer stock on one side, Dad an RM who met my mom on his mission to France - Sealed in the temple. So that's what 80%? Out of my six kids (3 bio and 3 step) 3 are out of the church, Two are semi-active, and one is active. Both my ex and my spouses ex (the kids other bio parents) are both out of the church. I often feel overwhelmed by how few of us are active - or even seem to have the desire to be active.
  9. I agree. I never asserted the prophet was infallible, or that his account was perfect - just that it carried more weight for me than an account twice removed from the source.
  10. Correct me if I mis-read - but didn't your mention of the Christofferson version come from a second hand re-telling by Tom? If Tom shared his version of what he remembers his brother telling him, there is a lot of room for mis-remembering and/or mis-interpretation. Whereas the first hand account from the prophet seems more weighty
  11. I join with my French-Catholic family members (although, I am a Latter-day Saint, my family in France are not) in the real anguish of loss at this time. Those windows alone caused me to weep yesterday. If you did not get to see them, there is no way to express their majesty and beauty - all accented by the fact that many depicted scenes of faith and were ~800 years old. The large rose windows - the majestic colors they imparted to the sanctuary were amazing and so peaceful to me. The wood work, the organ, I literally feel as if I have lost a member of my family. Edited: I just saw at least the rose windows seem to have survived!!! What a blessing.
  12. I did not want to 'like' your comment, because that seemed inappropriate to what I wanted to express. Know that you are not alone - there are many of us who struggle to understand where we failed as parents when we have wayward children. I know I beat myself up daily. I believe that, 1. The Lord knows your heart and will judge you efforts as much or more on your desires than on your efficacy., 2. Every parent will mess up in some way or fall short., 3. Time will reveal many things you did right as your kids grow and change - even now, if you choose to measure your kids by the content of their overall character, rather than their current level of activity, you will likely find things to be very proud of., 4. All of us would fare much better if we could go back in time knowing what we know now., 5. The Atonement is real and will take care of a ton of this - especially in the eternities. Easy things for me to say, since it is my struggle too - but try to be kind to yourself. I am sure you are a great momma!! 🙂
  13. Those people have the power and the anecdote - You can be the one to break the cycle of disfunction and abuse, and the gospel has the empowering recipe.
  14. I struggle with this - as I so strongly felt the spirit during President Nelson's remarks. I asked my young 14 year old daughter, who says she does not resonate with the church and does not know what she believes in if she felt anything during the talk, and she replied that she felt nothing at all. It is so hard to want to share what you feel with someone who does not. I feel his talk was so full of love and heart, and when I hear you (or people of the same mind) say that the talk was devisive, I wonder what the option is - are you saying he should spend the entire talk stating all the many reasons one might be struggling and/or just apologizing for any possible hurts real or perceived - or can his loving statement that he wishes he could talk to each individual and help them feel the spirit be enough? Is it seen as wrong by those who are struggling to hear a comment with any 'teeth' at all? What would a prophet's message be if it did not have any call to action, to repentance? Sometimes I wonder if those who have chosen to be on the outs with the church see the leaders more as just the presidents of a social club who need to pander to members to keep them happy, rather than emissaries of God who, in my opinion VERY lovingly, call for those who have wandered to return. If people are angry to the point where they have a long checklist the brethren must meet before they would even consider contemplating a return to activity or membership, then, in my view, they have placed a very real stumbling block in their own path in regards to feeling a desire to return. That said, once people have made the choice to leave, or have felt they can no longer honestly profess belief - my job is not to judge (even though I DO mourn, given my belief paradigm), but is only to honor agency, and to love openly. I pray every day for the spirit to do that, but also for the ability to help my loved ones be able to feel the deep wonder, peace, and joy I feel as the spirit fills my heart at conference.
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