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changed

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    Separates Water & Dry Land

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  1. How about throwing some the church's way? Why would the church put someone like this into leadership positions? the church is the worst kind of enabler to claim callings are from God, and put people like this into leadership positions. The spirit does not protect. Callings in the church do not come from God.
  2. Yes - "protect and provide" are gender roles defined by society that are not as associated with spirituality as much as say, something like nurturing and teaching is... nice to see, that in some places, gender roles are being done away with as nurturing is something both fathers and mothers should be doing, and protecting and providing is also something both men and women should be sharing responsibilities in. (Equally yoked and all that...)
  3. This is one of the reasons I have left the church. Men protecting, providing, in charge of ordinances etc. flies in the face of reality. There are more single moms than dads - women provide, women protect. There are more women who are spiritually inclined than men, so there should be more women than men in spiritual roles - just the natural reality of it all...
  4. I'm an individualist, but not secular. As for individualism, can you name this talk? Let's discuss the two different churches within the LDS faith
  5. Yin/yang in all of it - I agree. I do think it could add to SS though, as much of the poetry I think beautifully explains so many principles such as trusting God/ the Tao, explaining what humility is (the last will be first, and first last - put yourself last to be appreciated and know others - why is the sea king of 1000 streams? Because it lies below them all) being non-materialistic, to work without being attached to it - do what needs to be done without dwelling on it - I think there are scriptures which match each of these principles, but sometimes one way of saying it makes it click a little more than another.
  6. If the church cannot teach, out of say, the Tao Te Ching, then I would suggest it is missing out on what billions of people have been blessed by God to have guide their lives... Man-made vs made by God - nature is made by God, and it is big, and diverse, with each tree and each leaf on every tree being unique... Many who leave the church describe a freedom, and expansion of thought - as if they were locked in a box, just a few books, a few people, one small community to learn from - and all of a sudden the entire world is there to explore and learn from. Plato's cave...
  7. There were those 140 pioneers from Ca who were killed, and the Danites looting burning, and pillaging... plenty of OT stories too... America killed native Americans- there is bloodshed in every history - to me, it all encouragement from God for everyone to be self-reliance rather than rely on or trust any organization- political or religious. The test of faith to me isn't staying loyal to one organization over another, the test to me is being willing to think and act for yourself, rather than just go with the crowd. I believe those who stood against the priesthood ban are those who passed the test for example... or those who stand against any oppression. As a teacher, in order to get students to think for themselves, open-ended questions are presented... "find the mistake in the soln manual" excercises are great... who can correct the mistake I just made? I eventually post the correct soln with multiple derivations for them - sometimes the best way to teach is not to teach - to let people find their own authority they must be supported in taking ownership of their own answers. In a church youth class of YW, a conversation almost ended with "we just don't know the answer to everything" to which I asked "do your teachers at school give you the answers for everything? - neither does God... those are the questions you are supposed to answer for yourself. To be open minded is to be teachable, to let go of control -let go of desires as those in Eastern religious would say, or "not my will but thine be done"... we're not supposed to kick against the pricks - the load is supposed to be light if carried correctly...
  8. Embracing ambiguity in everything is part of my new belief system. I do not need anything to be "true". Just heuristics - rules of thumb that for the most part work. Taking ownership for my own well- being, spiritual self-reliance, not looking to others to provide happiness or hope, but creating my own joy and peace - have to let go of the priesthood for that - not relying on others, not expecting others to do for me what I should be doing for myself. No borrowed light as some would say.... no borrowed authority, no priesthood to fill my lamp with oil - have to fill it myself... not trying to be prideful here - the easy way out is relying on others to baptise, bless, lead, save - make someone else hold all the keys, make someone else provide and protect - I really tried to hand it all over.... reality is, I have to protect my children. I have to provide for them. I have to take ownership of my own salvation, my own inner light - nothing borrowed. No arms of flesh to rely on - that is just my reality.
  9. There are other similar reports if you are interested with more participants https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/2013-faith-crisis-study/ I have recieved a witness and testimony of the Tao Te Ching it has calmed my soul as no other book has. I have prayed, and meditated about it - just writing about now I feel a warmth, like hands on my head. A comforter, that brings me great peace. I have not experienced full enlightenment as others have, but I have had a little taste of it.
  10. Nice article, but I have never felt the HG testify of any authority in the church. The Catholic church claims authority, some Protestants claim Jesus fulfilled the time of prophets with no authority needed, AofF#9 - many things yet to be revealed indicates the LDS church does not itself claim a full restoration or knowledge. The lds president does not claim infalliability so... Muhammad at least was not a treasure digger... the Pope's at least did not practice polygammy... Community is good, but there is good, better, and best ways for doing things. I like the "by the people, for the people" organization model - if the church were "by the people" what inactive members ask for - freedom of thought - faith crisis support groups - honest resources - apology and acknowledgement of the past mistakes of the church - ask and receive, right? The church needs programs for adults who are in the dark night of the soul, and programs for adults who are in different stages of faith - not just programs for the youth. It is too centered on the primary stages of faith, with no room for embracing those with more open and universal ideologies.
  11. I asked my stake president what he thought of those who see most of it as parables - take the non-literal approach. Jesus taught in parables - which is great, because it is not about what did or did not happen- ... You can learn a lot of valuable lessons from Aesop's Fables without fighting through apologetics...
  12. It does look like an interesting book with many good messages, thanks for sharing.
  13. Let's start by defining the HG then - see my posts above... what is your response to the spiritual HG experiences those from other belief systems have with regards to their faiths? No matter what the issue is - LDSers like to ignore additional resources, and fall back on "the HG told me so" so let's start there. The HG bears witness to a lot of conflicting things....
  14. Are you David? (Screen name seems to indicate you are involved with this book somehow) In any event, as some who has/is going through a faith crisis - not sure if it was covered in the book, but is abuse by church leaders covered? Sam Young issues? I left because my kids were abused by a bishopric member. I've met quite a few others who have similar stories. As for I still attend as I am in a mixed-faith family. We have been in our ward for years and years, so many there are like family - not that I trust them (do you trust everyone in your family?) but I enjoy the company. To be around anyone is to accept the good and the bad. Belong? We belong to what is familiar - to a town we grew up in, or the school we attended. Not that we agree with the teachers at the school, or feel loved by everyone in the town - but if we were there for enough years, that is what is familiar, it is part of our life, it is just where we happen to live - that is why we are there - familiarity. A sage can find meaning in anything... I suppose the lessons I get from church are really different from others - when I hear the testimony of a child, I think how young indoctrination starts, and how real it is, then double efforts to unlearn what is programmed into myself for instance... When people talk about missionary work and service - I am thinking of all the inactive members I hang with who have never been talked to or served in any way, and I re-learn the lesson of spiritual self-reliance, knowing talk is cheap, relearning not to rely on anyone leaving the 99 and coming after the 1 (or is it leave the 40%, and come after the 60% who are inactive LOL - what percentage is it?).... I leave church having been spiritually strengthened - but with very different lessons than what others take away I suppose. You can learn through disagreeing as well as agreeing. Any lesson based on principles, those I agree with. Anything based on prophets, temple, etc - my new temple is nature - I re-interpret it. When invited to spend more time in the temple, in my mind I am inviting myself to spend more time outside in nature etc. For prophets? Martin L King, Mother T, Ghandhi, Buddha, Loa Tzu - they are still human, but people like this are who I choose as my most reliable teachers, and I do read and study their words and try to follow their council.... So - see everything at church as a non- literal parable, define things like "prophet" and "temple" as new beliefs dictate them to be - that is one way to remain active while maintaining personal freedoms of thought and belief.
  15. He got more than one thing wrong... Line upon line - when new information is found, how many are able to let go of older, incorrect beliefs? Faith vs. mis-placed faith... very few are brave or humble enough to admit their faith was misplaced. I'll grant that people have genuine spiritual experiences mixed in with emotions, and will also agree there are multiple guiding spirits out there - perhaps ancestral spirits... I do not see any single group as having the monopoly on it though, nor do I trust guidance from another if there is no logical or additional personal spiritual confirmation. I believe God chooses many imperfect, misguided, and confused leaders to force all of us to think and act for ourselves (rather than fully following any other human being). Confusing and false "spiritual" guidance also forces us to think for ourself (rather than rely on a faulty spirit). I think sometimes the best way to support someone is to disagree with them, and refuse to follow. Study it out, use reason, use our own mind and conscience, in combination with the spirit and suggestions from others - no single earthly source to follow, no perfect actions or decisions either, nothing that is 100% right or perfect in this world, just try to find what is best, live and learn from personal experiences and the combined experiences and teachings of everyone - from all religious faiths. Seems to be working so far.
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