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    Separates Water & Dry Land

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  1. Semantics? This is how most define consummate, and virginity - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consummation In many traditions and statutes of civil or religious law, the consummation of a marriage, often called simply consummation, is the first (or first officially credited) act of sexual intercourse between two people, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginity Virginity is the state of a person who has never engaged in sexual intercourse “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel” (Isaiah 7:14). See also see Luke 1:26–37, Jesus was not conceived through sex. I know some guys have fantasies about what Heaven will entail, and what G-d gets to do... us women have our ideas about what heaven will be too... sorry.
  2. It was also Heavenly Father who placed Mary into Joseph's care - fear not to take unto thee thy wife.. “Fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost..." In the end, after children are raised, everyone will have a monogamous relationship I think.
  3. Yes, I believe Heavenly Father was the father of Jesus, perhaps he would not have been able to fulfill the atonement - would not have been able to die, without having also come from his mortal mother? In any event, I do find it interesting that he was G-d's only child - "only" one, and that he had to be born of a handmiad. ... Eve was not able to have children in her perfect form either... Sarah started out barren - what do you think the symbolism behind all the barren women in the scriptures is? https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/barren?lang=eng&letter=B or all the scriptures using "adoption" https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/adoption?lang=eng&letter=A polygamy is about raising up seed after all, it is not about sex. 30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things. 31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands. 32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts. 33 For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts. How are families created? An interesting little tid-bit from the Savior: 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. We do not become children of Heavenly parents through sex, we become children through making and keeping covenants, through being disciples: 7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be calledthe a children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; 14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters. 3 Who so loved the world that he gave his own life, that as many as would believe might become the sons of God. Wherefore you are my son; etc. etc. the spirit of adoption where we cry abba - we do not start as as G-d's children, we become children through baptism - baptism is our birth, covenants are what create children.. (sex seems like the fallen way of having children, baptism/covenants appears to be G-d's way of having children) .. the thing with covenants though, you have to be accountable - with experience, at least 8 years old... so earthly parents are needed to raise children to the age of accountability - so they can become old enough to make the choice of who they want for their parents. Two sets of parents are needed - earthly parents to bring spirits to accountability, and heavenly parents that can then later be chosen through covenant and free will once the spirit is able to make an informed decision. I think this is what polygamy is about, it is about raising up seed - about sharing your children, and entering into a loving relationship with both earthly and heavenly parents. ... for heavenly parents to love earthly parents enough to entrust their children to them, to work together in one large family to raise up children - to be close to both heavenly parents and your spouse (church is also known as a bridegroom etc.) Again, it is not about sex, it is about raising up seed.
  4. virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, Isa. 7:14 (Matt. 1:23; 2 Ne. 17:14).
  5. Jesus was not born through consummation, and he was born to a handmaid. Yes, I agree that later Mary and Joseph had their own children. Mary and Heavenly Father's relationship did not involve sex.
  6. I think it has to do with JS being the founder of the religion, rather than just a follower, and as such, everyone would like to hold him to a higher standard. I am not sure if those relationships were consummated or not - for the law of Sarah, Hagar did have a child - when it comes to considering the eternal implications though, I think it is good to remember that Mary was a virgin. The point of polygamy - as it was for Mary, and as it was for Abraham - is to raise up seed. As with Mary, consummation is not necessary to raise up seed.
  7. Mary was a virgin, so that handmaid/marriage was not consummated. It would be a better example of the Savior's family if the second marriage was not consummated. The real test in all of this involves the children though - children with multiple sets of parents, just as the Savior had heavenly and Earthy parents, and we all have heavenly and earthy parents - giving your child to another to bear (Jesus was born by a handmaid, and raised by a step-father), that is the real test. We are all children of both heavenly and earthly parents - the trial of heavenly parents sending their spiritual children to earth to be born and raised by imperfect people, for anyone who wants to become like G-d, you have to learn to share your family.
  8. Another Open Letter

    I thought it was founded on Jesus Christ? This whole thing reiterates the fact the members rely too much on prophets and other church leaders, instead of putting their primary devotion and trust in G-d.
  9. RS council Sunday

    I have not been to RS for a long time...
  10. The symbolism around Abraham's family partially answered the polygammy / polyandry questions for me - we know what a handmaid is, we know Mary was a handmaid, that she was a virgin, and that she later married Joseph - that sums up the "law of Sarah" (with her handmaid) for me. Yes, Sarah eventually had Isaac, but she experienced the test... Abraham did not kill Isaac, but experienced the test.
  11. Another Open Letter

    I can assert that it is never a sign of a healthy system to deny facts, rationalize abuse, minimize assault, enable predators, shame a survivor, and placate a population that looks to you for leadership. Nor is it ever acceptable to re-traumatize those who have been affected by abuse. You have done this, LDS Patriarchy. "minimize" was the key word that stuck out to me here - I think may who go through rough situations are not given the amount of support they would like, and lash out in an attempt to get attention - in an attempt to feel any kind of love or support or concern. Have you been around kids who were neglected? Who did not get the love and support they needed? Adults do that too - if they are not loved and supported, they will react... There are all these talks about those who are supported through trials, and those who have been helped, and an expectation that if something goes wrong you will receive help - for everyone who does not receive help (or the amount of help they think they need) it is very painful. More talks that outline the reality - that most will not receive support from the church, and you can be honest - how many inactive members does your ward have? How much have you reached out to them to help them? How many sick / elderly / poverty stricken people do you have in the ward? Not all of them are helped - and they would like more than once a month 10 minute visit... so lets face the reality of what everyone is able to do, and explain to everyone they should not expect too much support from the church (so no one is let down), preach self-reliance, personal testimony - no borrowed light. There is a holocaust quote, spoken by someone who came to the realization that no one was going to come save them - they had to save themselves - If not us, who? If not now, when? ... If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am not for others, what am I? And if not now, when? The reality is, we all have to fight our own battles, no one else's responsibility to save us - we have the final responsibility for standing up for ourselves. It is our responsibility - not the prophet, not the bishops, not the RS president - we all have to stand up for ourselves, get through our trials our self... yes, we might get a casserole or two every now and then, but 99% of our trials we will have to fight through on our own. Get rid of false expectations. (The church is not perfect, the church will not save you, the church will not bear your trials) Preach more self-reliance, no borrowed light - no middle-man, it is up to individuals etc. personal responsibility, personal relationship with the savior and G-d, reliance on Gd rather than reliance on church leaders.
  12. Struggling with the Old Testament

    If anyone happens to be in Denver - http://www.dmns.org/dead-sea-scrolls/ Some interesting stories in there - they were discovered, and prophetic passages of Isaiah were read the same day Israel became a nation again.
  13. Struggling with the Old Testament

    I think the best way to read the OT is the Torah - in the original Hebrew. If you have any Jewish friends, have them explain it to you.
  14. It is more than one life - I have seen this stuff go for generation after generation after generation - makes for some painful family history work. Those who have not experienced it cannot begin to imagine it. Those who have experienced it - these are the members who need the most love, support, and help. I have seen Mormons help new mothers, I have seen them organize funerals for children and visit the elderly - we need to learn how to care for victims of sexual abuse too, especially those who have been abused by those called of g-d.
  15. Accuser of Joseph Bishop Files Suit

    This is quite a scary list to read through: http://www.mormonstories.org/stories-about-child-sexual-abuse-in-the-lds-church/ ...