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    Separates Water & Dry Land

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  1. changed

    Heaven always does what is right

    what is harmless? it is all relative - all depends on what your goals are. In this holiday season - do you give someone what they want so they want what you give them.. love the present love the giver sort of a deal? . or... give them what we think they need even if they might not (immediately?) appreciate it? God gives us what we need, rather than what we want, which creates a few disagreements at times... the gifts are not earthly, not power or money or popularity - the gifts given are humble hearts and contrite spirits... we can accept them, or seek other things, our own free will. There is more than one Spirit who will willingly accompany us through this life - choose your spiritual companions - choose your tests - decide what is harmful and what is helpful - or choose to see everything as helpful... choose what gifts are most important - choose your eternal kingdom... choose your heaven.
  2. I agree, I would never want to take anyone's spiritual journey from them. As I have told others, I believe part of our journey happens within a community, and part of it happens as an individual. For many who leave the church - spending so much of our lives relying on others, relying on leaders/apostles/prophets - it becomes a very uncomfortable thing when all of that is perceived as being 100% gone. In grasping for a community, in trying to gather together again some sort of security or support - many would like to have others take the journey with them. We are social animals, no one wants to be alone - especially not alone through something as painful as a faith transition, and yet that is the only way to begin that personal individual journey... not a time to convert anyone, instead a time to quietly take ownership of one's own mind, listen with the ability to interpret everything through the lens of one's own conscience, recognizing "where they are now, I once was... " without animosity towards anyone. Good to read everyone's supportive comments, thanks.
  3. Is there room in the church for "non-literal" participants who are not overly confrontational? At this point, I am "non-literal". I have been open and honest with leadership, turned in my TR as I no longer recognize the apostles and prophet of the church as being "the only person on earth..." etc. etc., and no longer hold to priesthood authority. These are still my friends though, my family, people I have grown up with - so I stay as a polite observer, do not participate in any class discussions, have only shared my concerns privately with a few people who know my situation (involves abuse by a bishopric member) and do enjoy many of the thoughts that are shared - just take a lot of things as Aesop's fables rather than actual truths... Bill's discussion of the spirit was interesting... I thought I felt the spirit during Elder Holland's missionary story - then that story was retracted - https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865685840/Elder-Holland-withdraws-Church-News-missionary-story.html yea - it does tear one's faith apart when leadership is not honest. TBM's don't understand how painful it is, when you find out everything that has been lied about - when those you thought were secure and trustworthy end up abusing your children... when the organization you thought would be a support is gone... a bit like a divorce, or finding your spouse was adulterous or something. It is painful, I guess that is why they call it a faith "crisis".
  4. Yes, I agree the Perry scheme can be applied to stages of faith as well. As with Fowler, Perry also suggests that higher levels of development rely on breaking free from authoritative dualistic models and lead to personal accountability and individualistic reasoning abilities. The highest levels in both schemes are not taught by any authority figure, are not achieved by following any single organizational path - they can only be achieved through recognition of uncertainty within all paths and all authority figures leading to personal choices and commitments - not based on "following the leader", but instead based on individual accountability and decisions. Dualism - my church is right, all other church and belief systems are wrong Authority figure - follow the prophet, rely on what the church tells me to do... up to accepting relativism, seeing the value in other belief systems and church groups, learning from a larger universal bank of knowledge rather than limited set of beliefs. Final stage - taking into account all belief systems and all spiritual experiences throughout the world and through time, collecting data from all sources and understanding appropriate relative applications of each, take responsibility for forming your own religious and spiritual beliefs - your own personal individual testimony. It is easy to follow the leader, easy to allow someone else to think for you... takes more maturity to think for yourself, make decisions for yourself.
  5. I do not believe the true church is built on flesh and blood - not built on earthly prophets - but is built on personal revelation. 17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church
  6. I prefer models such as: http://www.thebattleofarmageddon.com/stages_of_faith.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3Ibp4vBryi-Yfpbk_1m1UlcpDTN8h6xKwoSQOorxLMImJl0Fb7V08-uhA or https://www.amazon.com/Critical-Journey-Stages-Faith-Second/dp/1879215497 ↑ account of hitting the dark night of the soul, after which some people become atheist, others go back to where they were comfortable (go back to their previous beliefs), and the select few progress to a new and higher level of understanding. short version: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_W._Fowler The higher levels of faith are universal - not denomination specific, so are unreachable by those who get stuck in one particular faith over another. The higher levels also require individual accountability and reflection, rather than relying on outer authority figures.
  7. changed

    Marriage covenants

    Divorce rates... https://www.thoughtco.com/divorce-rates-for-atheists-248494 21% of atheists have been divorced21% of Catholics and Lutherans have been divorced24% of Mormons have been divorced25% of mainstream Protestants have been divorced29% of Baptists have been divorced24% of nondenominational, independent Protestants have been divorced Looks like atheists have the lowest divorce rates....
  8. changed

    Sam Young is Excommunicated

    First presidency response... sort of: https://invisiblescubit.wordpress.com/2018/11/11/appeal-response-zombies-in-our-midst/?fbclid=IwAR1YmNPQZMauQej-JZrdshO-QyTRy9zoa7boQE79ncXVbB7aOPg9yyAcTmA
  9. changed

    Youtube Apologetics -- Faith vs Works

    By their works ye shall know them... How many people form the Mormon church have won the Nobel Peace Prize? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_Nobel_laureates Mother Theresa, Ghandi, Martin Luther → amazing people who have done amazing "works". Who are the healthiest people in the world, who live the longest? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy Shinto → best health practices.... Who has the best work ethic, the highest incomes? http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/10/11/how-income-varies-among-u-s-religious-groups/ - looks like the Jewish and Hindu religions have something figured out based on their works... by their fruits...
  10. changed

    Marriage covenants

    Thanks Tacenda... yes, anyone who is curious can go back and read my first thousand or so posts - back when I was a temple-going TBM... all my temple-going, scripture reading, calling/volunteer work / doing all the right things, and this was repaid with ??? what blessings again??? abused children?? unfaithful "high priest" husband??? I guess no one really understands polygamy - understands what those marriage covenants really are - until they have personally experienced "sharing" their spouse... betrayal when you are supposed to be blessed? I am supposed to want to be eternally trapped in some polygamous marriage??? Nothing but betrayal going on over here.
  11. changed

    Marriage covenants

    He is not 100% mine - I have had to deal with adultery... and also had to deal with abuse from another high priest... not too impressed with "priests" in the Mormon church...
  12. changed

    Marriage covenants

    Women live longer than men on average... did your husband tell you the same thing? Encourage you to get sealed in the temple - for all eternity - to another spouse after he dies?
  13. changed

    Marriage covenants

    Do you believe it is fair that men marry more than one wife, while women are not allowed to eternally marry more than one husband?
  14. changed

    Marriage covenants

    ?? 22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else. So - the second wife is not someone to "cleave" to? no one else = not cleaving to anyone else = only one person that you cleave to... it is pretty clear...