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About mfbukowski

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    Wittgensteinian Pot-Stirrer

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    Los Angeles Area
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    My purpose in being here is to influence others to understand how the philosophy of Pragmatism relates to Mormonism. I found the church through my philosophical understanding of Pragmatism.

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  1. By the way, got more evidence for number 5?
  2. Great post. Number 5 especially needs to be in mind at all times, and is the grounding for why personal revelation is the rock on which the church was founded. We are all human, and brothers and sisters, and make mistakes If you understand that point alone, all the others disappear as rationalizations to justify errors. No biggie. It was a mistake. Get on with life in this wonderful church and live by testimony, take human advice for what it is worth and confirm, confirm, confirm by the spirit.
  3. mfbukowski

    Aprons of Fig Leaves and Coats of Skins

    Love that you said mother / daughters. Makes it LDS though most would see it differently, unfortunately.
  4. mfbukowski

    Aprons of Fig Leaves and Coats of Skins

    Golly, I've heard that somewhere...
  5. mfbukowski

    The Problem of Indifference

    I covered that . Remember the dofferent path thing? And now you're a positivist again? It gives the impression you are playing games. Yep indifference is a problem! That's ok, have a good one
  6. mfbukowski

    The Problem of Indifference

    Just an occasional oil change. Exactly!! I just hope that one didn't just fly over the cuckoo's nest, but a great example.
  7. mfbukowski

    The Problem of Indifference

    At first you can't tell if it comes from God or not, but at least you learn you have a "gut" and to accept or question what it says. The idea here is to learn to trust the "inner voice" we all have as long as it is telling you things you feel deep down are "right" meaning feel good in your heart, give you peace, and seem to make sense even if you don't quite understand how they make sense at the moment. If it says "Jump off the bridge" don't do it. The bottom line is that you CAN trust your feelings- it does NOT have to have "empirical evidence", because the subject matter itself is not about what is empirical, it is about what gives YOU purpose in your life and a sense of peace. The smartest philosophers out there find that to be perfectly "rational" IN THAT CONTEXT. Section 93 teaches that there are "spheres of truth" and it is exactly right- nowadays all the philosophers go by that as well- those are called "paradigms". There's a talk by President Kimball from the '90's on "Absolute Truth" which nails it pretty well though it is NOT a philosophical article and thank God he was not a philosopher professionally because then no one would understand him. But it talks about different kinds of truth for different professions, and truth which doesn't change as being different kinds of truth. That fits perfectly with the ideas of paradigms which were made popular by a guy named "Kuhn" so if you hear that name you know that is what is being discussed. Scriptures tell us that if it's good and gives you a good feeling, it's from God, if its confusing and feels weird, its no bueno. That's how we talk in LA. In your first posts you talked a lot about empirical evidence- and that is why I pulled the "positivism is dead" deal because I wanted you to understand that even VERY VERY smart folks who have studied it do not believe that empirical evidence is the only way to describe "truth". But if you're already there, you can understand that. Empirical evidence about how the world works will never help you find your purpose in life- what you are here to do and how to impact the world. That's what we all want- having a purpose in life!! And all the empirical evidence of historicity or non-historicity and who did what to whom when will NOT give you a purpose in life!! The only thing that gives you purpose is what your gut- that voice inside - tells you is the right thing for you. I am convinced that what the LDS call the "plan of happiness" is just that but that might not work for you. But if it really IS THE PLAN you ought to give it a shot, seeing it in a new way It seems you have a very authoritarian and black and white view of the church's teachings but I am here to tell you you do not have to see it that way It's all about personal revelation and following what is inside you. Yes you need to honestly pass a temple recommend interview but that is the PLAN of happiness! In my book anything else is the plan of UN HAPPINESS. But again your journey may be different legitimately- and that is part of the whole deal. We need to acknowledge that not everyone gets to Vegas by making a right turn and the next street then two lefts, straight for 6 miles and get on the freeway south. Our trips to happiness and godliness may pass through Buddhism maybe- mine did for a while! And atheism- but I see now I needed that to get here! And all that after being raised Catholic and philosophy grad school which I gave up because who wants to teach Aristotle for the rest of your life? But I did all the course work.... So for a long long time I have thought this way- then along comes the church and long story short - God showed me VERY strongly that this was the "right course" for me- we call that a "testimony"- but the philosophy came first Hope that helps. Oh and "bil" is an indicator of who I was talking about in case he sees it- wasn't really part of the message.
  8. mfbukowski

    The Problem of Indifference

    For what it is worth I love Hamba's reply to you on this. That guy always hits it. He's out there in the Pacific somewhere meditating under a coconut tree or something. So let me clarify. If there are some things that you know are true like that you shouldn't hurt people, you know that through what we call revelation. If you know that you have had something revealed to you.!!! Anything you feel in your gut is revelation. Mormons call that the Light of Christ. Maybe that's what you're not getting. I know in my gut this is the right path for me. I say that in Mormonrse as " I know the church is true." With my education in post-modernism I have absolutely no trouble saying those words consistent with everything I believe philosophically, and I believe that no one else should have any problem with it either if they understand that philosophy. Those who don't understand that philosophy need to learn it. To me not knowing the latest developments in philosophy is like believing that people didn't land on the Moon, or that we don't have rockets etc capable of doing that. So if you love someone that's from your gut. If you forgive people that's from your gut. Anything's that disgusts you comes from your gut. Anything that makes you happy comes from your gut. Religion is not about weighing God or finding out how tall he is or other facts about him or how he works. Religion is about dedication to a cause higher than yourself and finding a lifestyle that is consistent with that view. I can't think of a higher cause than the Perfection of humanity and if you can combine that with an understanding of Jesus Christ to me that is the best of all possible worlds. We are free of guilt and pain and have no more objective then self Perfection and the Perfection of humanity, while also being fully aware of how evil the world really is. That is the parable of Eden. One must know both good and evil in order to perfect anything. Anyway I truly hope that helps. Anything you feel deep inside you and your gut is revelation. It doesn't have to agree with other folks either. The path God wants for you is not the same path other folks need. We are all Unique Individuals and God takes us where we are and leads us where he wants us to go if you want him to. But if he takes us from where we are that means that we all have a different path. I mean just taking that literally helps. Presuming you live in Utah if we want to meet in Las Vegas you would have to go Southwest. Because I live in LA I would have to go northeast. My first steps would be to go out of my house. Those directions are different than the directions for you to get outside of your house. Turn left at the bedroom door go down the hall to the living room and out the front door, etc. Same thing with God. No one can have the same path. It's impossible. If at first you can't deal with the idea of talking to God, consider "talking" to your gut. Science is about how things work. Talking to your gut will tell you what you want out of life. Those are two different questions. Empirical evidence cannot tell you what you want out of your life. That is a function of religion and talking to your gut. At what I call religion may not be what you called religion right now. To me saving the world from global warming and saving the whales at cetera can be a religion. Any purpose higher than you can be a religion. There are tons of secular religions now, and people actually think that way. If you will read links I will send them to you. Anyway I hope that helps a little. I know you are ornery and I'm ornery too, so all that does is make us arguing Brothers right? I've got one of those too and I love him like crazy. (BIL)
  9. mfbukowski

    The Problem of Indifference

    Not according to previous posts on either account Try for consistency. It helps credibility.
  10. mfbukowski

    Why Not Engage the Evidence for Historicity?

    I put what the spirit teaches above what the church teaches. For many years the church was seriously tainted with the desire to sit with the cool kids at the "Christian" table Those were the McConkie days when many here got a false impression of "Mormon Doctrine". We are just starting to come into our own consistent views, at last Our scriptures have always said what they say and our individual interpretations always must be confirmed individually. Absent individual testimony, the church is nothing. It's claims are preposterous on their face. The only conclusion is to always put individual testimony ahead of what others teach, because that is precisely the whole reason for having an individual testimony. Long story short what you think the church has "always taught" is irrelevant and erroneous. It has not always taught that. Besides all that we have it open Canon. The church used to teach polygamy and no longer does. The church used to ban Blacks from the priesthood and no longer does. I personally believe in miracles and I believe that Christ came to the Americas literally. Clearly those questions are not on the temple recommend interview therefore one can be a full-fledged Mormon without believing those. One must on the other hand believe the Book of Mormon is revealed scripture. If one takes that figuratively you are not a judge of whether or not that individual qualifies as a member of the church or not. In my opinion your point is totally irrelevant.
  11. If every Mormon the church claims as a member lived in the US- say 15 milion US Mormons- they would be about 4.6% of the US population. I am putting them in the US to make the number of members more favorable to make it seem like Mormons are a higher percentage of the US population than they are. The real US population of Mormons is around 6 million so we are talking less than 2 % And you get 50/50 next to the base, so that makes Utah diverse? Just sayin'. Most high schools hereabouts have a few thousand kids. Maybe half a dozen are Mormon. That's the experience my kids have had. It's quite different hereabouts- that is my only point. Maybe I should post on local news to let people know what it feels like. Did you know that our typical temple attendance at each temple session on a week day evening is about 8-10 people? The population of Utah is about 3 million. The church claims 2 million members in Utah on the records. 66% The population of California is 39.5 million. The church claims 767 thousand members in California on records. 1.9% LA county alone is 10 million, 3 times the size of Utah in population. If all the Mormons in California lived in LA county, they would represent 7.6% of the COUNTY population. It's pretty different. I don't know if 50% counts as "diverse". https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/facts-and-statistics/country/united-states/state/utah
  12. You can mock LA and I promise not to be offended. Everyone does!! No offense intended- I am sorry I offended you. I thought I was being funny. Your town may be diverse but Utah is not exactly know for that.
  13. Nah, that is begging for permission. We just need to declare it. Sovereigns don't beg. There wouldn't be a problem if Joseph just decided to become king.
  14. mfbukowski

    The Problem of Indifference

    But he's such a sweetheart. Or is it fun guy? No I forgot. Fungi. The fan club grows daily.