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phaedrus ut

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About phaedrus ut

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    Separates Lights & Darks

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  1. Is this the same Stephen Thompson that has a Ph.D. in Egyptology from a Ivy League university?
  2. I think we are in agreement here. The BOM most often reproduces the KJV text exact word for word when quoting the Old and New Testament When the italicized words were added to the KJV text more often than not the BOM includes this, when the KJV translators made an error those errors are reproduced in the BOM. However a certain period Joseph chose not to reproduce the KJV text exactly. We can't read his mind to understand all the reasons why he made these changes but they most commonly happen where the KJV translators added their italicized text. This shows the BOM is heavily dependent on the KJV bible common in 19th century America and not translating a more ancient source. Dismissing the witnesses is a matter of trusting their statements. If you conclude that the KJV was used in the production of the BOM they you know the witness statements are intentionally or unintentionally inaccurate. A similar comparison could be made about glass looking. Joseph sold his services to find hidden treasure with his peep stone. If you hold the view that it's scientifically impossible for someone to use a rock to discover buried treasure Joseph's statements on the matter are irrelevant. Did he sell his services because he was conning people out of their money or was he deluded to believe he had the magic ability? We can't know. The same would be true of the statements of his customers about why he couldn't find the treasure. Did they believe him or were they in on the con? We also can't know. In either case we can deal with provable facts that the KJV is in the BOM and magic rocks don't find treasure. There are non-supernatural explanations for these facts. The bible was used to produce the BOM and rocks are just rocks. If you want to come up with a supernatural explanation for either the possibilities are endless. Unfortunately since supernatural explanations are untestable they are indistinguishable from someone just making things up. Or as you say the explanation is in "the eye of the beholder". Phaedrus
  3. And that's just spin. Even with the apologetic spin putting the italics being responsible for something just short of 25% of the changes it's still the most common textual variant and considering that italicized words account for 3-4% of the KJV we are looking at clear textual dependence. When Skousen last published on the subject I believe were looking at ~400 BOM passages with italics in the KJV and 150 alterations so 38%. Whether it's 1/4 or 3/8ths of the text the relationship between the two is ovious. That's really the only evidence we have. It's clear that the BOM is dependent on the KJV. The italics are only 1 of a dozen glaring points showing the BOM is the secondary text and not a translation of older versions of the biblical books. You can construct an amazing Rube Goldberg machine of apologetic speculations that explain the problems or choose the simple answer. Clearly there are some holdouts on final hills of Mormon apologetics such as the explanation for the KJV in the BOM and the BOA translation being somehow accurate. Here is my simple explanation. There are no magic rocks, golden plates, angelic messengers, or lost civilizations. Now we have thrown out the magical thinking it's easy to put a KJV bible in the room and declare the witnesses as unreliable. On this basis the BOM, the BOA, the D&C are the product of the same process and that's why they are generally unremarkable, riddled with errors, and a great example of 19th century religious speculation. Phaedrus
  4. You doubt it's based on a systematic thorough analysis? That's a awful confident declaration there champatsch. I'll give you two very easy examples from a friendly sources at FARMS/BYU Religious Studies Center that prove my point. John A. Tvedtnes, “Isaiah Variants in the Book of Mormon,” and Textual Variants in the Isaiah Quotations in the Book of Mormon By Royal Skousen. Both provide an analysis of just the the Isaiah chapters of the BOM compared to the KJV but the point holds for the broader analysis. Skousen and Tvedtnes differ somewhat in their percentages that italics explain Isaiah variants but we are dealing with a low number of 29% and a high number of 38%. Those are the statistics from apologetic sources. Critical sources put the number much higher. Italicized words make up 3.6% of the KJV Isaiah but in reproducing the Isaiah chapters in the BOM Joseph clustered approximately half of the variants around these italics. He removed 40% of the italicized words, then he replaced some words, added others, and made changes in and around the italics to create even more dependent variants. Denying Joseph's knowledge of the italics can't be defended by the textual evidence. It's demonstrability the most common of the BOM/KJV. It's like claiming Joseph Smith drove a car 1000 miles and along the way there were 36 stop signs and he stopped at half of them and changed course to drive around 4 of them. Yet you claim he doesn't know what a stop sign is. The evidence is pretty damning. Now let us leave the data provided by the text and see what other evidence there is. Well we have a contemporary source demonstrating his knowledge of what the italics mean. and again from a friendly source. Robert J. Matthews discusses the bible Joseph used in creating his "New Translation" of the bible. And to show that this was common knowledge among the people of the time we have this from W. W. Phelps writing in The Evening and Morning Star You'll see in the quote above Phelps considers knowledge about italics in the bible a "common understanding" of men at that time. OK and we will wrap this up with a little comment on textual criticism when it comes to biblical scholarship. When a text is of a secondary nature it is dependent on a source text. When we look at the variants in the BOM to quoted KJV texts you see that there are many more addition variants(pluses) than there are removal variants(minuses). The fuller text shows dependence on the original source text. Phaedrus
  5. Various scribes worked with Joseph Smith in the preparation of the Book of Mormon over a period of 21 months in various locations. Multiple locations and multiple scribes doesn't make using different versions of the KJV seem like too great a leap. Even though witnesses say no bible was used in the process the textual evidence is too believe convincing otherwise. It's also important to note that most KJV variants in the BOM are near italicized words. In the KJV words which appear in italics were added to make the English translation more readable. Joseph clearly knew what the italics meant and used it as an opportunity for textual changes. Phaedrus
  6. This statistic comes from the Trevor Project national survey of LGBTQ youth. With over 34,000 respondents, it is the largest survey of LGBTQ youth mental health ever conducted. The number increases to 57% for transgender and nonbinary youth who have undergone conversion therapy. Phaedrus //I started a new thread because for the first time in 15 years I've been locked out of a topic. Please see my post history to confirm for my flagrant rule breaking.
  7. I'll pass your links along to my neighbor who's gay son killed himself after being outed. Hopefully it'll provide him some comfort. Phaedrus
  8. Once again the church is taking a defensive position defending antiquated and hurtful religious practices. It's action like this that are accelerating the exodus from the church. The real problem for me is the moral issue of causing harm to gay members of the church including a increase in youth suicide. My conscience won't allow me to remain silent on this issue. Phaedrus
  9. I never noticed this thread when it first came through but I recently finished the book and shortly there after traveled through southern Idaho and saw Bucks Peak and Stokes Market. One observation I would like to make is that about Tara Westover's relationship with the church. It seemed important to her that any negative details about her upbringing shouldn't be a reflection of the Mormon church. I've known quite a few Mormons who, like the author, gained noteworthy academic credentials and for most of them that also meant moving on from Mormonism. Like Tara they are almost protective of the church and avoid criticism among outsiders. Among other former Mormons they feel free to criticize but otherwise treat their former religion with kid gloves. Phaedrus
  10. Oaks comments are hopelessly ill informed to the point it's intentionally ignoring science. If you look at the statistics for just medically intersex, not specifically just transgender, they look like this. Not XX and not XY one in 1,666 births Klinefelter (XXY)one in 1,000 births Androgen insensitivity syndrome one in 13,000 births Partial androgen insensitivity syndrome one in 130,000 births Classical congenital adrenal hyperplasia one in 13,000 births Late onset adrenal hyperplasia one in 66 individuals Vaginal agenesisone in 6,000 births Ovotestesone in 83,000 births Idiopathic (no discernable medical cause)one in 110,000 births Iatrogenic (caused by medical treatment, for instance progestin administered to pregnant mother)no estimate 5 alpha reductase deficiencyno estimate Mixed gonadal dysgenesisno estimate Complete gonadal dysgenesis one in 150,000 births Hypospadias (urethral opening in perineum or along penile shaft)one in 2,000 births Hypospadias (urethral opening between corona and tip of glans penis)one in 770 births Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female one in 100 births Total number of people receiving surgery to “normalize” genital appearance one or two in 1,000 births Source With this we have the statistic that we often see the estimate of 1.7% of the population. That is an estimated 128 million people globally. That means the worldwide intersex population is 8 times larger than the membership in the LDS Church. Phaedrus
  11. It makes you wonder the reasoning why they weren't before. Women didn't have the credibility to say "yes this happened" before? It seems strange to celebrate being slightly less sexist. Phaedrus
  12. Present numbers have active Mormons outnumbered by inactive numbers 2 to 1. From what I can see that trend is expanding. Combine that with decline birth rates, conversion rates, and declining senior and youth missionaries I don't see that trend reversing. Extinction is never a realistic possibility. Heck there are still Strangites on Beaver Island. I think we are close to the peak of total active Mormons globally. Phaedrus
  13. I know that Clark and I have both been on the various iterations of this board from the beginning and I've enjoyed quite a few stimulating discussions with him. My sympathies and condolences to his family. Phaedrus
  14. Of course murder is wrong and immoral. For example we know rape is a horrible crime and we know it's not as bad as murder. The church has specifically said this on many occasions like Would you still be willing do defend Abraham if he agreed to the lessor sin of raping Isaac? If not then why are you defending him for willing to commit a greater sin? Phaedrus
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