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  2. Hindsight 30 years later is always better, but it seems a lot of judgment is being made here on very little info, We don't know what he offered in terms of help or not, except that he says he didn't report the accusation. He very well may have offered counseling, she may have refused it like she refused to make use of the therapy given to her on her mission. We have no way of knowing enough to judge at this point except to say a mistake was made in not reporting such a claim, but he was hardly unique in that at the time. Even in these days of mandatory reporting, many who are supposed to still do not according to stats I have read. And much that is reported is not investigated.
  3. Looking for attention is all too often an excuse for not inquiring more deeply, or not referring to a therapist. Bishop Leavitt could at least have recommended that. Hard to believe that he is so dense as not to recognize signs of a problem. If I had been bishop, I'd have at least paid for some therapy sessions. I have seen it done with some excellent results.
  4. You said it better than I did. I totally agree.
  5. I think you made my point. We can't just call them wicked. We don't know their intents. While certainly what they did was horrific, their belief of whether they sincerely thought they were doing the will of God is impossible to know for sure. It is just as easy to think they honestly thought they were doing the will of God as it is to believe they had evil motives. When people honestly believe they are following the will of God, they do all kinds of things that seem contrary to what Christ taught.
  6. Today
  7. Actually, the text does not say it took 8 years to travel to Bountiful - that has been an assumption. I think it is fairly interpreted as saying that it took them eight years to travel from Jerusalem, until making their boat in Bountiful - ie Bountiful was part of being in "the wilderness." 1 Nephi 17: 4 And we did sojourn for the space of many years, yea, even eight years in the wilderness. 5 And we did come to the land which we called aBountiful, because of its much fruit and also wild honey; and all these things were prepared of the Lord that we might not perish. And we beheld the sea, which we called Irreantum, which, being interpreted, is many waters. Further, the whole trip was something close to 2300 mi. I believe they were probably in Bountiful something like 4 years building a boat. That was a large undertaking. In the initial leg, they spent the better part of a year probably at their camp by the Red Sea. That left 3 years to travel around 2300 mi - with prolonged stays for hunting, and building up supplies for the next leg - not unreasonable.
  8. If they traveled in a mostly eastern direction from Nahom to Bountiful, why did it take them 8 years to make a journey that should have only required a few months, tops?
  9. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sciencealert.com/marijuana-compound-thc-removes-toxic-alzheimer-protein-from-brain/amp
  10. What signs could have been seen back then? They could have taken her at her word someone approached threateningly in the parking lot when she screamed. She said nothing else. And there is nothing known that others might have said who were her companions. She refused to speak to a therapist. I assume you don’t think she should have been forcibly committed? Besides whatever she said to Leavitt in 1987 iirc, she apparently didn’t share info with anyone we know of, so as far as they could tell there was nothing to act on Leavitt apparently thought she was looking for attention, unless he is lying or has dementia himself, though seems if he does it isn’t enough to matter toa judge (I read someone reporting they had read that his lawyer tried to get him exempted from testifying because he has dementia but this was denied). He kept the relationship open apparently since his daughter ended up staying with Denson in Japan. He couldn’t have thought her too unstable if allowed that. Nor does it sound like ishe held any hard feelings against him. She claims to have talked to Asay, but she has a history of lying so I don’t believe we should assume this to be the case unless her ex husband backs her on this. In 2010 leaders called the police.
  11. Nope. I'm not even sure what your point is here. People leave the church for a variety of reasons. To suggest that they leave because they need to be "commanded in all things" and can't handle the reality of a prophet that doesn't literally speak with God is short-sighted and reflects an extreme bias.
  12. I would say, yes, that leadership is either at odds with their expectations or with what they feel church teachings claim. But I disagree with this. My experience is that for many who leave the church, they have accepted the reality of what a prophet is and that becomes part of why they leave. Probably a reasonable (though broad) conclusion. But I"m back to disagreeing. Strongly disagreeing. This ignores the reality that many leave for spiritual reasons. It also disregards President Uchtdorf's teaching I quoted above. That an insane conclusion to make and a horrible over-generalization. How do you know that those who leave don't believe that God still speaks to them. Or others. And how do you know this about those who have left the church? And for each of these individuals, you know that it is about their level of comfort and not about personal revelation they have received? Your flow of logic was bad in your earlier post. In this post you are just coming across as mean and overly judgmental.
  13. How odd. All the signs of instability at best and psychosis at worst were there, and no one acted.
  14. That should be clear from your own comments: Should Elders Monson and Asay, Bishop Leavitt, the SP, and any other leaders receiving the info in SLC have reported the claims to law enforcement immediately. Or do I misunderstand something?
  15. I think that zooming in on one piece of data, such as divorce rates, causes one to miss the big picture of what is really going on in the world. I simply don't understand how Cohen can claim this when his own graph clearly demonstrates a fairly even downward trend from around 2010 - 2016 in divorce rates for EVERY single age group except for those aged 55+. Not to mention, the divorce rates for the 18-34 year old age category appears to have remained fairly consistent since the early 1980's (between 11-13 divorces per 100 marriages)- not much has changed in that age group -so how can Cohen claim that lower divorce rates are primarily due to "younger women"? I don't get it, the numbers simply don't show that. Not to destroy your optimistic outlook on the world, but when you take these figures into perspective with the big picture of all relationships, things are not looking so good after all. I certainly wouldn't claim that things are getting better in the world of marriage/cohabitation, nor would I give millennials credit for saving marriage.
  16. At some point we need to put off childish things. That is scriptural of course. In the first sentence above you appear to be adding yourself to the list of those who believe in prophetic infallibility Of course God speaks to us through the prophet. That is not the issue. The issue is whether or not we need our own testimonies of the prophet or if we should be robots, salute and march along in unison. Obviously that is not the church I joined. If that's how you all learned it as babies then perhaps it is time to grow up and actually read the scriptures that repeatedly say "ASK GOD who provides liberally".... not "rely unquestioningly on the prophet." To me THAT is the foundational principle! How many talks have you heard saying that we should not rely on the testimonies of others, but get our own? What does that mean? Get our own testimonies of human perfection of prophets? I think not. For get the primary song and become adults. You have worlds to create, you are not in primary. Human beings make mistakes, forgive and forget, they WE are still the best hands God has on earth working for HIM! And yes I think in the last sentence- as you are characterizing it- he is right as well. Precisely right. God helps me find keys- how about you? Is that too trivial a thing to trouble the King of Heaven with? He is my Father with infinite intelligence and tutors me in the gospel line by line IF I let Him! And if that means helping me with some trivial little problem - I learn VOLUMES in those tiny tender mercies! If they do not or cannot study it out and get an answer- were that ME - I would walk in 5 minutes. Why would you stay in a church that demands personal revelation that simply does not exist to you? That is a general statement- not addressed to anyone in particular. I guess the cultural factors, family involvement and tradition of being "6th Generation Mormon" is just too strong for some to actually leave. Just sit in the back row and spend your life griping about the church. I see a lot of that here. Weak.
  17. Here are a few articles - the next generation has stronger marriages, by a long shot. Things are getting better in the world! The Coming Divorce Decline https://osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/h2sk6/ Millennials Are Causing the U.S. Divorce Rate to Plummet They’re waiting until all is secure before tying the knot. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-25/millennials-are-causing-the-u-s-divorce-rate-to-plummet Add divorce to the list of things Millennials are killing : https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/09/26/millennials-blame-lower-us-divorce-rate-study/1429494002/ from 2008 to 2016, the U.S. divorce rate dropped by 18 percent. What's causing this downward trend? "The overall drop has been driven entirely by younger women," Cohen writes. The study, which has not been published in a peer-reviewed journal, has been submitted for presentation at the 2019 Population Association of America meeting, an annual conference for demographers and sociologists to present research. To measure the divorce rate, Cohen compared the number of divorces to married women. When controlling for other factors like an aging population, the results show only an 8 percent drop, "but the pattern is the same," Cohen notes.
  18. Leavitt states she told him her and another sister missionary were shown porn by Bishop and that was it. He found the claim to be nonsense and states iirc she was known to be overdramatic. He figured a mission President would be vetted and therefore safe. He never reported it to anyone according to him. Denson claims he hooked her up with Elder Asay, but that has not be confirmed by records or apparently her exhusband who she claims took her, iirc. If .Leavitt is telling the truth, the first any other Church leader heard about it was in 2010 when they confronted Leavitt and he denied it. Too late to be charged, though it should have been reported to police (it is unknown whether they did or not, church statement said they did and I read one comment from police that said they knew and declined to investigate, but iirc the official report only mentions the death threat). Also after she went out to D.C. From the MTC in 1984 to wait for her visa, she claims she had an anxiety attack in a parking lot and started screaming. Instead of saying she was having anxiety because she was embarrassed, she claimed someone tried to rape her (because that is less awkward?). They sent her back to Provo and sent her to a therapist who she refused to talk to (and more or less brags about it) and then she had an interview with then .Elder Monson in order to be cleared for going out. She says she said nothing then to either of them. I don't fault a rape victim for not being ready to talk about it, but besides Leavitt, it seems like Church leadership at the time responded just as they should have, but she wasn't ready to tell them what had happened in order to do something about it.
  19. When someone becomes disillusioned by church leadership, is it not because that leadership is at odds with their expectations of what divinely inspired leadership should look like? I’m saying their expectations for how a prophet should be are at odds with the reality. At the root of nearly every contention with the church is, I believe, the idea that the leadership is not divinely inspired. Whether the examples are of moral failings, failure to discern, factually incorrect or disproven theories, or just things that conflict with personally held beliefs—the common theme is that God isn’t guiding the leadership. And people become disillusioned because they can’t handle it. Now you’re saying they’re going off and doing their own thing—well yeah, because now they no longer believe God speaks through anyone on behalf of anyone. There’s no longer any need to know what the mind of God is—God is whatever they want him to be. It’s safe. I think if God isn’t offering uncomfortable suggestions from time to time—you’re doing it wrong. As for literally speaking through a prophet, I stand by my statement. The Lord reveals his will and mind through a prophet—but even a prophet has to be able to communicate that perfection in an imperfect manner, imperfect language, inadequate articulation, etc, etc. When President Nelson is speaking, he’s communicating the will of the Lord, but that doesn’t mean he does so without error. Anyways I’m on a sleeping pill, if the flow of logic is bad, I’m not taking responsibility till I can correct it tomorrow
  20. Only if she is telling the truth. It is surprising how little Bishop said himself as opposed to just not contradicting her or saying "yes" if one reads all the transcript. The police interview may change that, but then unless we find out about if he has dementia as has been rumored by some claiming to be close to the family (one said he was on his exwife's side, iirc) or not, it is hard to know whether to treat the police interview as independent or if it is possible the first interview created some false memories.
  21. No - it's just not a binary equation. Of course - I didn't say otherwise. We have certainly been counseled to seek personal confirmation of teachings in the church and I firmly believe in the necessity of that. However, I think Church teachings often lean a bit more towards the idea that while a personal spiritual confirmation is good "We can always trust the living prophets. Their teachings reflect the will of the Lord..." (Gospel Topics section on Prophets) Nope, not a contradiction. It's a principle I live daily. Let's return to what @SteveO stated in his post this morning: He theorizes that individuals who leave the church are those that "cannot bear the idea of a world where God is not literally speaking through a prophet". The first problem with this is that many faithful church members would suggest that a foundational principle of the Restored Gospel is that God does literally speak through his prophet. He then suggests that those who leave are those who don't wish to study it out in their minds and pay the price to receive personal revelation because the don't really believe God will speak to them. The logic of this doesn't follow. If someone studies, prays, and receives an answer the that they should no longer be an active member of the church they aren't seeking to be "commanded in all things" as @SteveO claims. Instead, they have studied and prayed and let God lead them personally. I'll conclude with a relevant teaching from President Uchtdorf in October 2013: "In this Church that honors personal agency so strongly, that was restored by a young man who asked questions and sought answers, we respect those who honestly search for truth. It may break our hearts when their journey takes them away from the Church we love and the truth we have found, but we honor their right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscience, just as we claim that privilege for ourselves."
  22. This reminds me conceptually of Fromm's "Art of Loving."
  23. Also my favorite. Semantics, I think, about whether or not one can use the word 'fail' to cover the ground one or the other or both of us is talking about, and the mechanics we will arrive there. I will submit easily that there would be a better word. But it was the one given in the discussion so I riffed off that (not you, I think it was brother Storm Rider). I think we can agree (? I'll let you say) that the society we have now is not the one we are going to have. And in my opinion, we have thousands of years of paradigm to undo for that; and nowhere are we more blind than in the structure of union and family. Nice. This and brother Tuhan's story--exactly MY point. That we choose and create. And if we arrived where there is still hell and not paradise, we have more choosing to do and it may not look like we thought it did, otherwise we would already be there. ('Celestial' laws yielding a 'celestial' experience.)
  24. The problem of eugenics and abortion is swept under the rug by feminists - it is simply too harsh to have discussed in public and when discussed it must be couched in the most positive light possible. It is interesting to look at some of the people who were committed to Eugenics in the early part of the 20th century and their impact on the rest of the century.
  25. What’s the estimated distance from Nahom to Bountiful?
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