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  2. Two questions. Why assume that someone wants their family with them at church out of embarrassment? That's a very uncharitable assumption and I'm wondering why that is the perspective you immediately go to. And, do you really believe that my beliefs (such as that someone can only gain a fullness of joy by accepting and following the gospel of Christ as taught by the church), are just as valid as your's? I ask because, from reading your posts on here, I would be incredibly surprised if you actually believed that. That is not the vibe that your posts give off.
  3. Or she could be talking about those who describe their experience as a "faith crisis", which is currently the most common way nonbelievers or doubters describe it in my experience (which is emails sent into FairMormon as well as discussions here and elsewhere)
  4. If one person (or both) is determined to be upset when the other acts on their personal beliefs, then yes, I think a cordial break up is probably the only way. Some people are able to allow others to follow their beliefs without taking it personally though so for those, I think that remaining in the relationship, and having the relationship be healthy, is very possible.
  5. There are few things more likely to drive people away than that, imo. I don't know too many believers who only care about having family with them at church, etc. because of embarrassment. Even my grandma who was so obsessed with appearance and status she cut a curl off a wig and glued it into my mom's baby bonnet so the neighbours would think she had lovely curls primarily wanted her 'wayward' son to come back to the faith because she thought he would be happier.
  6. The time loop stuff I have trouble with originates with T1.
  7. Solutions can be simple. Often that is good because it is easier for all to get on same page. It is reducing complex problems (which most major problems are) to simple that can cause issues, imo. (Breaking the problem into smaller pieces easier to digest is good as well as long as no one starts assuming that is all there is and resolving that will make the whole issue go away). We try to do the same thing (no talking) with politics with my husband and daughter...and I always regret it when we stray from that (though both can talk to me generally speaking, though my more middle of the road approach bugs each of them in turn, lol). We know their talking with each other will persuade neither of them. One close relative we included in discussions a few times when his son was preparing to go on a mission. We thought it would be a great idea for preparation as well as creating a specific time to discuss issues rather than them popping up and derailing other family encounters. I thought it went well. I don't know his opinion. It just happened a couple of times though.
  8. Here is what I mean be relent: believers are encouraged to have their families with them because families can't be together forever if one leaves. How about relenting on the rescue mission? How about leaving the unbeliever alone as Sunstoned suggests? I think it is highly problematic if the unbeliever is continually pressured to return or subjected to guilt, etc. just because the believer is embarrassed. I don't mean that the believer needs to have a beer or not wear garments, etc. The unbeliever would be overstepping if these demands were made. Non-belief should be just as valid as the believer wants their beliefs to be.
  9. I really wish you would pay more attention to what is said. Please show where I even hinted it wasn't a problem for the Church. Go back and read my post please and then rewrite your comment if you still have questions. Hopefully the clarifications will help make it clear what I am referring to. Bishop said it was Denson. If you claim he is wrong there, you open it up to him being wrong about the confession unless there is confirmation through someone else.
  10. I don’t see why a believer would need to relent their belief to come to an understanding between the two that allows for a healthy relationship. Maybe I’m not following. IMO many attend therapy with an agenda of changing the other person. In reality, that is not what therapy is. I think many believers (imo) hope that non believers will “come around”. Sometimes that makes the relationship feel like it is motivated by agenda, for the non believer. That cannot feel good. I think believers often feel afraid of offending (further?). In truth, there is much miscommunication and assumption that happens between believer and nonbeliever. Therapy can facilitate clarity. Good therapists are non biased in their approach.
  11. Bishop says he confessed to a higher-up and still kept his job. Also the confession was about an incident that didn't include Denson (remember she didn't have enhancement surgery and wasn't well-endowed) How is this not problematic for the church? If the suit continues, the question remains about what the church knew and when. If the confession was pre-Denson, then the church continued to allow a predator to be the MTC president. Pretty bad for the lawsuit from the church's perspective. Also, pretty bad that the church let Bishop the sexual predator to continue to walk the halls of the MTC.
  12. I disagree, partially, with that assessment. A good education can still enable a single earner family to do well. That education does not have to be college level. There are a lot of skilled trades jobs that can be obtained with training obtained through military service, trade schools, and community colleges. Training also has to be in areas where there is a job market. Families where neither partner has education or other training in fields with where workers are needed face the obstacles that you are talking about, as well as families that live in areas with a high cost of living. A lot depends also depends upon where a person chooses to live or has the ability to choose to live. In places like California even a high paying job is often not enough because of the high cost of housing. A lot of people there and in other areas of the country, especially the elderly living on fixed incomes, where the cost of living is exceptionally high have been priced out of the housing market and either wind up homeless or having to move to other less costly areas. I do not know if the genesis of this trend towards two earner families stemmed from a desire to obtain and maintain a desired lifestyle or whether it was because inflation pushed the cost of living in some areas made it necessary for both partners to work. It is a variation on the chicken and egg situation. I personally know a lot of people where a limited education necessitated that situation, and I know a lot of people where it was a lifestyle choice. And, to get back onto the focus of the thread, doing everything we can to encourage and strengthen the family unit and to provide educational opportunities for people lacking job skills etc. would go a long way in helping families rise out of and stay out of poverty. Strong families are still the most important unit in the world. Glenn
  13. Yes. To continue on the theme of what I was trying to say of 'essence' vs 'structure', I think it's good to start from scratch, at least in our thinking. What is family? Is it support? Is it love? What do those look like? What does sex have to do with it (if anything at all, how much should it have to do with it)? Is it about children? Is it not? Do we want to teach our children to meet the expectations of the past? Or how do we prepare them for a changing future? Does number and gender in a family matter? How much? Does the number of persons a person has sex with (assuming that person is mature and has integrity in the matter) really destroy them? Do families have to live in the same house? Do human beings have to live in houses at all? Do we really need to go to school to learn what we need to learn? Do we really need to have 8-5 to bring in income? Should we all go back to being farmers? How much time do family members need to spend together? What is the union of a man and woman (or woman-woman) (man-man) really supposed to be about? Is it about who does the dishes? Or is there a much deeper calling here? What do children need to see modeled and from how many models? Is one okay? Is more than two better? Is 18 years old really the age of emancipation? Should it be earlier? Later? Why is emancipation even a thing? I could go on. But I'm saying, we are at a period of history where we need to re-ask ALL the questions and assume nothing.
  14. Not sure how this helps Denson's lawsuit. The only part left is her claim that the Church leadership knew prior to Bishop being called as MTC President that he was a predator and withheld this info so that she could not make a decision to protect herself. For her lawsuit it is only evidence that the Church leaders can ignore predatory behaviour, not that they did in her case. At best this is evidence someone in Church leadership knew afterwards. It works possibly for possible victims who came later. Did he say who he confessed to? Is the report itself online?
  15. Terming the "problem" as a faith "crisis" assumes non-belief is a problem, not continued belief. Also, I suspect non-believing psychologists, from my experience, would perhaps take the tact of telling both spouses to relent a little in order to find common ground. (If belief isn't that big of a deal, why not have both accomodate?) However, Ms. Blue Dreams pushed back on that a little, saying it was unfair for the believer to relent on his/her belief. So, what is the non-believer to do? Is the "counseling" then really about getting the non-believer to not evangelize and be patient with the attempts to get the "prodigal" to return?
  16. This may be a simplistic and superficial solution. But with my family, after some arguments, the unspoken word is to not discuss religion with me. We stick to other topics. Yes, there is still the Elephant in the room, and at times the conversation is strained, but overall it works. I still have a relationship with my family.
  17. Not speaking for BD but a skilled therapist knows how to manage their biases. Finding common ground is crucial. I don’t think an active member should need to drink coffee or bend values to have a relationship with an ex member. If so, it’s a false relationship. I also don’t think an ex member should need to feel like a project. If two people want a relationship they can meet in a place and talk about and do things they have in common. Ideally they should be able to talk about their lives “yesterday I went to the temple” and “yesterday I drank my stress away at the bar” and the listener not lose their mind. Imo.
  18. Also, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) was outted in this article. He was the lawyer who filed the suite to get the transcripts released.
  19. No confession of rape. Maybe this was an over-step on Denson's part.
  20. Being able to marshal a good geographical model also has the potential of getting the attention of those who would ordinarily not give the Book of Mormon a 2nd thought. Once it may grab their attention as being viable, they then have the chance to work on a spiritual connection to its truth.
  21. Today
  22. This was what was known to begin with. He said he asked Denson to expose herself and gave another sister a "frisky" backrub (clarified later by consig to be including touching her buttocks). Is he in pajamas? I wonder if that was a conscious choice to appear less capable or if it is because he is less capable. Seems strange a man of his age would be in an appointment with anyone, let alone police like that. I would have expected something closer to business wear. added: I see this mentioned in the article, I wonder if he was in his PJs when Denson saw him. He kept his calling after confessing to asking a woman to show him her breasts? I find that very hard to believe. Finding MTC Presidents and convenient excuses to release potential liabilities isn't that hard. It is consistent with him blaming others like his wives for his problems, abuse of others (he claims his first wife didn't love him implying lack of sex, yet she was willing to expose herself at the dinner table for his pleasure) Undrrstandable why BYU didn't want to make it public. She didn't have an augmentation while a missionary, if he got this wrong (either the person or the reason), should we assume the rest is accurate? Same thing happened in his Denson interview.
  23. New information, but very disturbing/ https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2019/06/16/when-did-lds-church-know/
  24. I would like to know what she said that makes you think she could believe this. Trying to follow your thought process. What do you think she is saying here?
  25. Ok. But at a certain point, words have meanings that are understood by the population at large and meanings can be presumed and thoughts therefore understood. Again, if Blue Dreams thinks I don't understand her, she is capable of letting me know and explaining where I am in error. If she decides to further engage, I would like to know if she tackles the problem presuming that the church is true and if this can ever be an issue with her couples. Or does the non-believer need to remain quiet while pressured to return?
  26. I never assume I understand completely what someone has said/meant to say. From what I have seen the majority of communication issues are caused by people assuming they understood when they didn't and others assuming they were understood when they weren't.
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