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  2. Brigham Young was fully aware that many Saints, including Church leaders, were not fully on board with the Word of Wisdom as he was then teaching it. From his April 1867 General Conference address: Note, however, that in his call for greater obedience, the Word or Wisdom's requirements were already set. What were the Saints repeatedly asked to abstain from: alcohol, tobacco, coffee and tea. Also note that Brigham fully admitted his earlier use of these substances 'for many years'. He also stated that both alcohol and tea had potential medical uses and should be available for those purposes.
  3. When I was president of the postgraduate student association at the university, I purchased liquor for entertainment purposes on multiple occasions.
  4. David O.McKay drank coffee as well through his first decade as an apostle. JFS and HJG were responsible for whipping the GAs then the church membership as a whole into shape.
  5. Today
  6. Well for what it is worth I do not believe that Joseph stopped translating and said hand me that Bible so that I can show you which section to copy. If I had been Joseph it would have troubled me greatly to have gotten an ancient record only to be told well copy this and that from the Bible. No hard feelings I hope!
  7. Sure, but when I hug my concert after her amazing baptism and spiritual experience and then i get in trouble there is something very wrong with what we are instilling in our elders and sisters. Hugs are not “inappropriate” unless someone makes it clear they do not want one.
  8. Exactly. A great example would be J. Golden Kimball. He was always a little on edge but drank coffee for years without any repercussions into the 20th century.
  9. Purchasing liquor for entertainment purposes?
  10. You are right about the alleged “hang by a thread” prophecy. The Lord’s endorsement of the principles in the U.S. Constitution, however, are in the Doctrine and Covenants.
  11. Why are you still saying “LDS Tools” contains the hymns? It doesn’t. “LDS Tools,” which has been renamed “Member Tools,” is the app that has the directory of members of the ward and stake, the local leaders, the stake and ward calendars and the stake and ward officers. The hymns (words only, not musical notation) are in the Gospel Library app, the one that has the scriptures and the extensive collection of Church curriculum materials. The hymns with musical notation as well as words are in the app that was recently renamed Sacred Music. President Nelson has asked us not to use the abbreviation “LDS”. I said these things to you before. Sometimes, conversing with you is like talking into a dead phone.
  12. From my study of the evolution of the Word of Wisdom in the Journal of Discourses, I learned that some years after the arrival of the Saints in Utah, a few leaders brought up the question of what to do with that revelation. Up until then it had been on the back burner, but now that the Church was settling down in relative peace and prosperity, some were interested in examining it and taking it seriously. Attempts were made to bring it to the attention of the members, but their efforts were mostly unsuccessful for several reasons. Converts coming to Zion brought their old habits with them. Despite efforts to teach it as doctrine, many had difficulty giving them up. As a result, the leaders decided to leave the older generation alone and concentrate on teaching it to the youth. Through this emphasis of teaching the youth it became a hallmark of the Church, and eventually it was codified in worthiness standards. Part of the problem was economical. Tobacco and other substances were being imported from back East, which resulted in money flowing out of Zion. BY and other leaders decided that if they couldn’t get the members to give those things up, it would be better to produce them locally and keep the money at home. BY and others were up front about their weaknesses and inability to observe the WoW fully.
  13. Do you remind them of the Word of Wisdom or that obeying it is a requirement for a temple recommend?
  14. Just quoting the Master’s words on this issue....🤔
  15. You might have enjoyed the unedited version more.
  16. Well, since we all know women are incapable of lust, no need to.
  17. If your eye offends you..... He appears to be talking to men (his disciples) in both instances. I suppose that it could also be applied to women. It is a “hard saying.”
  18. I got the impression you were talking about the cutting off of any part that offends (Matt 5:30), but if so didn’t understand why it was a solution for men and not for everyone, so I assumed I misunderstood.
  19. A-frame and side hugs only, Elder. Some folks are uncomfortable with hugs. I’m not a fan unless it’s with family or close friends. Captain Billy died because he put his arm around a jealous man’s wife on a tv show. Captain Billy was a fixture in Albuquerque. https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/64055675/ernest-robert-scherer
  20. I don’t know about removing her veil (given we may be in spirit form first after death, I see all that as likely symbolic rather than literal), but usually it is described as her husband doing so. Also do we even ‘wake up’ after death or does our spirit simply leave our body as appears to happen in NDEs? This traditional understanding of husbands bringing their wives out of the grave is from before single women typically received their endowments, so the vast majority of sisters buried in temple clothing would have been married. I don’t remember any speculation on what would happen with single sisters. It gets complicated when one starts thinking of all those who weren’t buried, but burned or drowned or those with decomposed bodies. Then there are the molecules that got consumed into plants or other animals and recycled through the millennium. Even preserved ones will be substantially damaged so there is no way the same molecules that composed our bodies will be part of our resurrection...assuming resurrection is even immediately after death? (What about spirit prison and paradise?) A man never wore a veil in the temple, but if buried in temple clothing wears all of them as he wears them in the temple.
  21. That’s an interesting way to look at it, but not exactly, no.
  22. KJB's have been very consistent over the years. However, there are a handful of words or phrases that have changed slightly. I've Identified 10 words or phrases that have changed in the KJB and which also occur in the Book of Mormon. I examined about 100 KJB's online (between 1611 and 1828) and for each one determined which of the ten words or phrases match with the corresponding word or phrase in the Book of Mormon. The following chart shows my results. The red X means the KJB does not match the Book of Mormon. The black circle means that it does match. The year is shown on the horizontal axis and the number on the vertical axis corresponds to the following: 1) Isaiah 49:13: "heaven" or "heavens"; 2 Nephi 21:13: "heavens" 2) Isaiah 49:13: "God" or "the Lord" or "the LORD"; 1 Nephi 21:13: "the Lord"; I count both "the Lord" and "the LORD" as hits. 3) Isaiah 51:16: "and have covered" or "and have defended" or "and I have covered"; 2 Nephi 8:16: "and hath covered"; none of the bible versions use "hath" like the Book of Mormon. However, I count "and have covered" as a hit while "and have defended" and "and I have covered" I count as misses. 4) Isaiah 6:8: "I saide" or "I said" or "said I"; 2 Nephi 16:8: "I said"; "I saide" and "I said" I count as hits. 5) Isaiah 8:6: "Forsomuch" or "For so much" or "Because" or "Forasmuch" or "For as much"; 2 Nephi 18:6: "forasmuch"; I count both "Forasmuch" and "For as much" as hits. 6) Isaiah 10:26: "rocke Oreb" or "rock Oreb" or "rocke of Oreb" or "rock of Oreb"; 2 Nephi 20:26: "rock of Oreb"; "rocke of Oreb" and "rock of Oreb" I count as hits. 7) Isaiah 10:34: "forrest" or "forest" or "forrests" or "forests"; 2 Nephi 20:34: "forests": I count "forrests" and "forests" as hits. 8 ) Matthew 6:3: "right doeth" or "right doth" or "right hand doth" or "right hand doeth"; 3 Nephi 13:3: "right hand doeth" 9) Malachi 3:4: "offrings" or "offerings" or "offering"; 3 Nephi 24:4: "offering" 10) Malachi 4:2: "shall" or "yee shall" or "ye shall"; 3 Nephi 25:2: "ye shall"; I count "yee shall" and "ye shall" as hits. I understand that the latest critical text volume will do an analysis on the KJB in the Book of Mormon. So this information may be outdated in a matter of a month or so when it gets published. I will be interested see what Dr. Skousen comes up with. Now for a quick analysis of the data. I didn't find a single bible that had all ten corresponding Book of Mormon words/phrases. There were some with 9 and several with 8. This probably means that more than one Bible was used in the process. (The least number of hits was the original 1611 version with 3. So this version was definitely not the one used.) Alternatively, it's possible that a conscious or accidental change was made that just happened to correspond to a different version. Skousen, in fact, suggests that is what has occurred at number 4 (though I have my doubts). The very earliest bibles that could have been used would have been the 1639 and 1640 Cambridge editions which both have 8 hits. The 1622 or 1657 edition would need to be the other bible used to provide the other 2 hits or there are various combinations with two other bibles. Keep your eye on number 4 on the graph. After 1657 it goes dormant until a single instance: an 1816 Cambridge edition. If the process was modern it would most likely have to include this 1816 version plus another version such as the Phinney Bible which contains the other 9 hits. So, based on the data, there are really two different windows in which the process could have occurred: about 1639-1657 and about 1816-1828. Although I've used around 100 Bibles I know there are many more editions out there. Additional data could change this analysis. Also, there may be other words or phrases besides the ten I have identified. There are also a few proper nouns that have different spellings in different Bible versions which I did not include those in my analysis. KJB comparisons.pdf
  23. Yep... Mission president telling the sister missionaries that their mere presence is the equivalent to pornography for the elders. Sounds like a crippling message to me. In one area of my mission, my companion and I shared an area (a small branch) with a companionship of sister missionaries. We worked very closely with them, meeting often and making joint decisions regarding which companionship was best suited to work with which investigators and members. Sometimes we taught together. The four of us made a halfway decent quartet and we sang at firesides and such. Those months were some of the best of my mission because together we were stronger and better missionaries. I held those sisters in great respect (still do). They were and are amazing (although I've lost contact with one). I never thought of objectifying them nor did lustful thoughts enter my mind when we were together. As cliche as it may sound, they were like sisters to me. It's sad to me that the elders in the mission (where the OP took place) may not ever get such an opportunity to grow in (non-romantic) love and respect for those sisters.
  24. I was curious what the response would be. You do not disappoint. 👏🏻
  25. Mate, as far as I can tell, no one on this thread gives a damn whether Brigham 'fleeced the Gentiles' (his term) by distilling and vending whisky. I don't even care if he drank it himself at some point. That possibility doesn't 'upset' me in any way. But you're the one who's ignoring the history. By 1867, Brigham was teaching the Word of Wisdom to the Saints in General Conference in the exact same formulation that we use it today in worthiness interviews: no alcohol, coffee, tea, or tobacco. And you can ignore his claim to revelation by making unreasonable demands that revelations be written down before being spoken aloud, but he claimed to be acting under inspiration. I know there's a popular narrative out there in your chosen 'internet articles', but it's not accurate.
  26. I think the issue is not the association (though it seems overstated at times imo), but it is the claimed disconnect between the early position and the current one on the WoW. Some of us see it as a natural progression given the changing environment and options available.
  27. I misunderstood. You probably know more about this than I do. All my understanding comes from internet articles. I am just having a hard time understanding why some folks seem to be upset by this. JS and BY and other leaders used alcohol. That was not uncommon, and was not considered a sin as long as it was in moderation. I do not believe JS or BY drank hard liquor (distilled). I have found no real evidence of this. Just wine, and maybe beer.
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