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  2. No, we are hearing about them from Dehlin. That means they are secondhand information (they have filtered through two people to get to us--the accuser and Dehlin, and are based on his research, not on his personal experience with Murdock). If we were hearing about them from the actually people who experienced them they would be firsthand. The accusations against Dehlin were from the person invovled, so firsthand. It's not about lying or trustworthiness, it's just the nature of the difference between firsthand and secondhand accounts. What we've got from Dehlin about Murdock right now is hearsay. It could definitely still be true, but right now it's not much more than rumor or gossip because it's not from any of the people actually involved. There's a reason that hearsay isn't admissible in court.
  3. It looks like Murdock was arrested on August 13th which was reported in the media. Dehlin says he started receiving information about Murdock on August 14th. He didn't post his podcast until August 22nd. That's more than two days. M.
  4. We are dealing with quoting and reporting first hand reports..... No, we are not. We are dealing with anonymously-sourced second-hand reports. We have John Dehlin saying what others are saying. Each and every word and syllable coming from John Dehlin is hearsay. Second-hand information. I tend to want more precision when talking about things like "first hand" versus "second hand" accounts. Generally speaking, there is a big difference between the testimony of a percipient witness (like the victim in Tennessee) compared to hearsay testimony from a non-percipient witness (like Dehlin). We have him arrested, based on what is likely probable cause. And we have public statements from the vic. Again, this is anonymously-sourced hearsay. Gossip. That's all. No. We have anonymously-sourced hearsay statements. Who are these eyewitnesses? Where are their statements? What did they see? What did they personally experience? Where? When? That we have "numerous" anonymously-sourced hearsay statements (through the same biased and financially-incentivized source: John Dehlin) does nothing to bolster the inherent weakness of these purported statements. Meanwhile, I think it would be better for us to not jump to conclusions, nor rush to judgment. Perhaps we should hold them in abeyance, then. Neither rely upon them nor reject them out-of-hand. Let's wait and see what, if anything, is forthcoming. Or better yet, perhaps this story is not really worth a whole lot of attention. I can't help but feel badly for his family members and friends, who are all likely feeling humiliated at this public spectacle. And the only reason it's getting airtime is because John Dehlin is using it to make the Church look bad. To embarrass us. I'm not inclined to continue following him down this rabbit trail. Thanks, -Smac
  5. I would not say that I speak for God to them. I would simply share with them what God had told me, leaving them to find out from God for themselves. I would understand if they didn't want to just take my word for what God said. But that wouldn't stop me from telling them what God had told me, either, if I felt God wanted me to share my knowledge of things with them. From my point of view what I would be telling them was what God had told me, and no counsel from God, correctly understood, can lead people away from God. I would just need to be sure that God had told me what I was saying God had told me. Otherwise I would be in big trouble with God for misrepresenting him. As would you, or anyone else.
  6. I was referring to this: ETA: Let me also state that I am absolutely not a Dehlin fan. I really quite honestly don't care much for him and I don't follow him or listen to his podcasts. I also don't like what he's doing here....piling on with making more accusations and information public. I feel bad for Murdock's family and this just makes it all much more painful. I'm truly moving on now....
  7. Right. I am wary of this stuff being so rapidly put together, and I'm not very fond of Dehlin's public persona, but he does put himself on the line when he brings forward such reports. I hope he did his due dilligence. If not, let it be known.
  8. Well, we don't know that he lied about any of them. I've said they should be looked at with skepticism....but there's no evidence that Dehlin has lied, is there? Like I just posted to Smac.... And now I'm moving on....I've pretty much given my opinion here and will just watch this case and see if more witnesses actually come forward with statements or more charges....
  9. Um, how do you know this? What "issues?" It looks like you are relying 100% on anonymously-sourced hearsay gossip provided by John Dehlin. Is that correct? This part is a quite different. The witness to the misconduct is not anonymous. We have verbatim quotes from her, her own words. Photographs (of Murdock at the mall, so nominally corroborative). Law enforcement is involved. An arrest was made, thus indicating the existence of probable cause. None of this can be said about Dehlin's anonymously-sourced hearsay. He doesn't have to be lying. Gloss and embellishment and exaggeration can do all sorts of things to distort the factual picture. Moreover, his "sources" could be lying, or glossing/embellishing/exaggerating. I think the whole McKenna Denson fiasco is illustrative of the need for people to step back and be cautious, to avoid uncritical and credulous and knee-jerk acceptance of allegations like these. Thanks, -Smac
  10. We are dealing with quoting and reporting first hand reports.....that I can agree on and I've stated they should be treated with skepticism. What we do have though is this guy being caught in the act and also reports such as this: Other than that, we have numerous other eye witness statements given to Dehlin and we will just have to wait and see if any of those witnesses actually come forward, speak on the record, or press more charges against Murdock. I certainly wouldn't just throw all of these statements out though and disregard them....just my own opinion here.
  11. Well that's the core of it, isn't it, Ahab? You think God told you X, but you cannot verify that for anyone else, can you? So what would you be doing, if you went around saying that God told you X and that you speak for God to them? What if your representation of God hurt them and led them away from God? That's an enormous responsibility, isn't it? What obligation would you have to be sure you were correct if you decided to do all that?
  12. Why is it difficult to believe that someone who lies a little would lie a lot? I am not 100% on him lying but if he made up any of them why assume any of them are authentic? Oh, I suspect Murdock has done all kinds of things in his past. I just do not find it credible Dehlin dug them all up in what? Two days? That an apostate was able to pry stories out of what he makes out to be around a dozen active members with all his crosschecking he insists he is doing. They went to him instead of the press?
  13. Except that these statements aren't "first hand." Dehlin has provided only hearsay. Worse, he has only provided anonymous hearsay. ... That's why I asked if this could be documented: My point remains, though: We aren't dealing with "first hand accounts of this guy." We are instead dealing with hearsay-within-hearsay. From anonymous sources. Filtered through the anything-but-objective and I'm-only-pursuing-this-story-because-I-can-use-it-to-make-the-Church-look-bad and I-have-personal-biases-and-financial-incentives-to-senstionalize-the-"evidence" John Dehlin. Thanks, -Smac
  14. Uh huh. It might be more productive for you to simply engage in the conversation, if you want to be productive. I am open to reason, and am interested in it. No, you are certainly wrong, a question about the implications of that cautionary scripture is about protecting the sheep in the fold, and not killing anyone. Perhaps you'd also benefit from researching systemic harm generally, and how we as human beings can perpetuate systems that harm individuals. If there is something systemic that is harming people, and I am perpetuating the harm and can change, I'd like to know.
  15. What I said was not what you said I said and called a circular definition but I let your incorrect labeling pass thinking you knew had understood what I said. Now I'm not so sure if you correctly understand what a prophet of God really is. "knowing when the prophet is acting as a prophet" .does not mean the same thing as "knowing when a man is acting as a prophet"... so if you don't know when a man is speaking as a prophet then why on Earth would you call that man a prophet? You seem to have 2 different ideas in your mind while you think they mean the same thing.
  16. Your repeated insinuations that all priesthood leaders are grooming children for sex predators.
  17. I'd be much more suspect of any of his reported statements if this guy didn't seem to already have issues in his past record and been caught in the act and arrested and charged. So yes, I take all of that into consideration. But I'll wait and see if there's more evidence brought against him from these firsthand witnesses, etc. Until then, I'm still suspect of them....but it's difficult to believe Dehlin would lie about all of these statements, IMO.
  18. What single-word noun is the functional equivalent of “Mormonism” for the Seventh Day Adventists?
  19. One is certainly allowed to disagree and even ignore or defy the Church President on this matter, but doing so does bring one’s loyalty into question. (And let’s not confuse the matter: Slipping up or forgetting from time to time is quite a different thing than utterly refusing to comply.)
  20. This is a problem with the human condition. We assume if enough stories are told there must be some truth in them. It is how the really bad antimormons of the past had some successes. You could discredit and correct bad information after bad information and show the source is quite willing to blatantly lie but if there is enough volume people too often still assume there must be truth in some of it. Liars and conmen use this loophole human reasoning all the time. You drown people in enough untruths and they eventually start to believe some of it while still imagining they are skeptical. I would say that if he lied about one it is more likely he lied about all of them. Add in that he has vested financial interest in at least appearing to have inside information on something like this and yeah.......I have no reason to trust him. There is a reason that in the Book of Mormon lying was a criminal offense and liars are lumped in with murderers and adulterers in all of the scriptural “people going to hell” lists. Liars murder the truth or the facts, which are the primary touchpoint humans have in this existence to relate to each other with.
  21. No, a circular definition is not the same as a simple definition. I agree that we must each seek personal confirmation of counsel received from the prophet. But that is not the same thing as knowing when the prophet is acting as a prophet. You're confounding two principles.
  22. If everyone in the Church said God rejected that, though? It would be impressive to see that many people in agreement but you're right it still wouldn't necessarily mean that God rejects it. God rejects only what God rejects, and God's rejection isn't dependent upon how many people agree with him, or how many don't, either. I don't suppose it would suit your purposes if I told you that God has told me that he abhors abominations and that people of the same sex having sexual relations of a particular kind with each other is an abomination of how they should act with each other, so I see no good reason to tell you that now.
  23. That's why I asked if this could be documented: I still stand by my opinion that this is not true:
  24. You missed the point of the exchange between Miserere Nobis and me. What is the single-word noun, comparable to “Mormonism,” that identifies the culture, practices, beliefs, history, mindset, etc. of the Seventh Day Adventists? I said I can’t think of one. If you can’t come up with one, then my point is made.
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