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  2. I am a No. Californian Saint. I thought California Saints were elitist until I realized it was just the same group behaviour I saw in high school, Canada, Kansas, Russia, and even Mapleton. Everyone thought there was some quality that made their group special. And they are right as far as I am concerned. I think that is important to feel that way. To feel proud of who you are and those you care about, are close to. It can become a problem when we refuse to acknowledge other groups are better in some ways than our own. We don't have to be the best at everything even if we need to feel we are important and have value to others.
  3. I’d invite you to reflect on what motivated you to pay your tithing while you were doind so. That may provide you some insight into why you haven’t perceived a change in your life since you stopped doing so
  4. Book of Mormon Central shut down the BMAF.org website. They owned it since 2014 or 2015, when Kirk Magleby the previous owner of BMAF, combined his efforts in 2015 with Jack Welch owner of Book of Mormon Central. They were embarrassed, apparently, that it got out that the legal organization for BMC is BMAF, which promoted The Book of Mormon as a Mesoamerica text. A Mesoamerica text. Right. That’s what it use to say on the BMAF.org site, that BMAF existed to support The Book of Mormon as a Mesoamerica text. So it was shut down to hide that phrase, so BMC can appear to be neutral on Book of Mormon geography, which BMC is not. https://bookofmormoncentral.org/about “The legal organization behind Book of Mormon Central is the Book of Mormon Archaeological Forum, Inc., a 501 (c) 3 non-profit public charity chartered in the state of Utah in 2004. Book of Mormon Central is not an official part of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but rather an independent organization.” Here are the organizations below, and their owners who promote The Book of Mormon as a Mesoamerica text, from a plagiarized RLDS Theory then ask for donations to promote the nonsense geography theory. You’re suppossed to be ignorant members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and believe the Prophet Joseph Smith learned the geography of The Book of Mormon from a travel book published in 1841 written by John Lloyd Stephens about his adventures in Central America; the book was gifted to Joseph Smith in 1841 three years before he was murdered in 1844. And everything Joseph Smith said in his lifetime before he received this travel book that had anything to with the geography of The Book of Mormon anywhere outside of Central America or Mesoamerica, was nothing but pure speculation by Joseph Smith. That is, he made it up. Including that the Hill Cumorah being in New York is false. Then these three organizations below plagiarized a Book of Mormon geography theory from RLDS scholars, namely one called Louise Edward Hills who published a book in 1917 and another in 1924 then started to promoting it as the truth. The Book can be read here: New Light on American Archeology; Louise Edward Hills, 1924, P.55: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89058377359;view=1up;seq=58 Hills made up a geography theory restricted only to Mesoamerica. He ignored Oliver Cowdery who wrote in Letter VII that it was a fact the final Jaredite and Nephite battles occurred near the Hill Cumorah in New York. here: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/90 BMC also not only ignores but attacked Oliver Cowdery saying he’s not a reliable witness. Why? because it destroys the plagiarized RLDS geography theory that Book of Mormon events occurred strictly in Mesoamerica. Then as organizations thay have no purpose in life as they already copy Church articles and images and are no longer unique. So Oliver Cowdery therefore also has to be an idiot and a speculator just like Joseph Smith when it comes to Book of Mormon geography. If you accept that claim, then these Scholars who run these sites are the ones who “own” Book of Mormon geography and we must look to them and NOT the Prophets who restored the gospel of Jesus Christ and his Church. Then these organizations beg for your donations, which is why they created 501(c)(3) Charitable Corporations which can receive tax-deductible donations and can also avoid paying Utah Sales Tax when they sell their products, such as books. 501(c)(3) : Book of Mormon Archaeological Forum https://secure.utah.gov/bes/details.html?entity=10077730-0140 Book of Mormon Central https://secure.utah.gov/bes/details.html?entity=9625327-0151 Interpreter Foundation https://secure.utah.gov/bes/details.html?entity=8414484-0140 Fair Mormon https://secure.utah.gov/bes/details.html?entity=10511303-0151 That’s why BMAF.org was shut down, that is its web pages were removed. Book of Mormon Central censors the words of Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, to hide them from you, because if you’re ignorant, BMC and these other organizations win. I won’t censor; BMC does. So here is the link to their KnowLie that Oliver Cowdery can’t be trusted and is essentially a liar. I haven’t read the entire article because it’s nothing but dribble, written by members of The Church Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints trying to protect their 501(c)(3) business model, you know MONEY! https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/knowhy/how-are-oliver-cowderys-messenger-and-advocate-letters-to-be-understood-and-used
  5. I realize it's not my money. I'm a big believer in that. I'm just having major doubts that this is the only tithe possible.
  6. It's just nice to have a few commandments that you don't feel tempted to break. Drinking coffee, eating shellfish, coveting my neighbor's a$$, and getting gay married are all on the list of things I don't feel tempted to do.
  7. Oh, the ol' cherry pick the scriptures in desperation to make them say what you think. You see, here is the problem with that approach. It can only grasp what the individual desires to hear - a itching ears approach. It is obvious that you have not read the scriptures nor attempted to understand them. Worse, you haven't listened to the prophets and the apostles teach the scriptures - heck, you haven't even listened to theologians from all the major Christian churches. I am not going to waste my time or my effort to list the plethora of scriptures that would round out your stunted understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The reason - you are not teachable and you have no desire to listen to the Spirit when he speaks to you.
  8. They have been operating businesses since they got into Utah. You heard of ZCMI? First department store in US according to Wiki.
  9. No soft drink with the word diet in it is heavenly
  10. I agree, but haven't a problem for people to tithe something to the church of their choice since churches need the $ to stay afloat. Now the LDS church is a different animal because of it's wealth, and yes they should give more to charity, IMHO. But maybe by them keeping the majority $, they'll bail out either our country or another cause out there. But the law of tithing has since been changed since the early days of the church, IMO. I remember reading on a link that it said to tithe those in the LDS church, unless they have no means to pay. But those words were taken out. And the words about increase have been changed to mean income. Those things bother me a bit. I'm sure I'm going to get a CFR so I better get my google fingers ready.
  11. When you realize it's not your money, returning ten percent becomes easier. Why do you think tithing is supposed to go mostly to humanitarian aid to begin with?
  12. One of my main concerns is the secrecy of the church's finances. The church completely shut the door on transparency right around the time they started operating businesses and got heavily involved in the stock market. That is very suspicious. The way tithing and finances are handled in this church just doesn't ring true or right to me. Stockpiling cash and building malls just doesn't seem right for any church, let alone the church that claims it is the only true church.
  13. It is unfortunate that this narrative became so prominent. It would have been just as easy to run with a different narrative. Remember Joseph Smith claimed to have found the bones of Zelph, a righteous white Lamanite prophet in Illinois who fought for freedom with the Prophet Onandagus. Goes to show that (1) not all Lamanites were evil, (2) not all Lamanites were cursed with a skin of blackness, and (3) those with Lamanite ancestry today could just as easily be white, like Zelph the white Lamanite prophet.
  14. It's a very likely interpretation that Junia is an apostle. However, it's quite possible in that time the word apostle, literally "one sent forth" has more in common with being set apart as a missionary than Priesthood hierarchy.
  15. Thank you Navidad. No, I expect you won't change my mind, but it has been known to happen before I always enjoy respectful exchanges of viewpoints. Those do imply a somewhat partial apostasy. However, I invite you to consider Revelation's prophecy that the whole world would be fooled by the false prophet. I also invite you to consider Acts 3:21 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. I assure you that I too have an extremely high regard for the Bible. In fact I will say that it is because of this regard for the Bible that I came to conclude that The Church of Jesus Christ does represent the restored gospel. Look up that word restitution of all things which is supposed to occur before the earth can receive Him again. The dictionary says that means restoration. That is the heavens would receive Him until the times all things are restored. For there to be a restoration there must have been a loss. Do you not agree? I am not one to go around criticizing people. In my view neither is our Lord doing that when He says the creeds are an abomination to Him. Anything that is untrue or a misrepresentation is an abomination to His gospel. That doesn't mean He thinks less of people. Did He think less of me, when I was born into a Baptist family? Did He think I was an abomination before I converted? I pledge to you that you are witnessing it, but just haven't realized it. That is why this Church carries "Latter Day Saints" in its name. I will proffer to you though that there is no "the antichrist." There is the false prophet of Revelation. To be an antiChrist I feel one must deny Christ or His sonship. False prophets don't necessarily do that. I believe there are many antiChrists who fit this bill. One is Muhammed, and the Quran has been around for some 1500 years all the while denying Yeshua died on the cross or is the Son of the Father. Doesn't the Lord say He does nothing except He telleth His servants? There is a scripture in D&C which says the day of His return shall not come unawares upon the Church. The Church will know it, but the world does not accept the restored gospel. I suppose it also depends what one believes about His return. Is it His return in the clouds or his return to Jerusalem? The former is about to occur - yes. We may indeed be seeing a minor apostasy inside the His Church - some have left. Some are fighting doubts. Some are just along for the societal ride. I am not their babysitter. The Church leaders have been warning the Church for years. I am not sure the Church is sure of its eschatology. I seem to differ in various outlooks, but I will leave you with my confident testimony that the Lord is alive in this Church... Love ya...and respect ya.
  16. Is your interpretation that in a sealing only the male enters into "the new and everlasting covenant of marriage"?
  17. Fair enough, didn't take into account the family element. I used 25% of church membership as full tithe payers on $50,000/year. Either way, we're talking BILLIONS more dollars a year than there could possibly be expenses.
  18. 20B a year seems way too high to me. With 15 million members, say 6 million active, maybe 1.5 to 2 million families paying tithing? Hard to get to 20 B
  19. The church easily brings in $20,000,000,000 a year in tithing alone. They have another $32,000,000,000 in investments. Missionaries pay what is it, $400 each month? So $300,000,000 a year from the missionaries to fund a big chunk of the missionary program. There is no way chapel maintenance and building a few temples a year costs anywhere near $20 billion dollars each year. The San Diego temple cost $24,000,000 when it was built, which is $42,000,000 in today's money. So the church could literally build 500 temples each year with their annual tithing income. I can't imagine where even half of $20B goes. It certainly doesn't go toward helping people. Why?
  20. I don't believe how tithing is spent is any concern of mine. I pay it because God commanded it. That's where my concern starts and ends. Also, tithing isn't meant for purely humanitarian purpose. D&C 119:2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church. 3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.
  21. If it was not tithing funds, then what are you saying? "Sell all our assets and give it all away in a big, impressive, showy blowout display!" Is that what you want? $1.5B handed out to the poor? "Minutiae" does not necessarily mean "tiny". It's "details".
  22. Context is everything. Or as Uhtred of Bebbanburg would say, "Destiny is all."
  23. Yesterday
  24. Crivens. No, for the overall usage of cosmetic surgery, obviously. What a world we live in.
  25. Except for 7 years at BYU and 2 years teaching in Murray and Springville, I have been a "Mission Field Dweller." It is true that having a pioneer ancestor enhances the resume of a critic of the Church. But it is nice to have a couple of Martin Company survivors in the family tree (on me momma's side). We lived in Rockford, IL, for 4 years. On one side of the Rock River were the Catholics and on the other side the Lutherans, with a passel of Evangelicals thrown in just for fun. The same kind of elitism and complacence existed on each side of the River there. It was not easy being LDS there in our two dinky LDS wards divided by the River. Because of our years living in Utah, Sister Gui and I were viewed as "Utah Mormons," but we filled some callings that needed filling and made some great friends. Some of the complaints about elitism are just the provincial aspect of human nature, IMO. You find it everywhere. I don't think it's helpful to rank on Utah LDS for being human. At Conference time, I always enjoy the sense of belonging to a larger community (national in earlier years and global more recently) that I feet in April and October, whether in Illinois, New Mexico, Central America, Australia, or Washington. I will never forget the first Priesthood Session I attended in 1964 at BYU in the Smith Fieldhouse. I was astounded at the number of men in one building. My previous experience was driving 100 miles to Albuquerque with a couple of carloads of brethren to hear a telephone feed at a half-full stake center.
  26. What does love God with all your heart, soul, and mind mean to you, So Mo? (Serious question, not a 'teaching moment' )
  27. Can you love God and ignore him, ignore what he desires for you?
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