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  2. mnn727

    The Church Has Spoken on Immigration Policy

    The parents are not justified in traumatizing children for life by bringing them illegally into another country. It's inhuman and immoral.
  3. The Nehor

    The Church Has Spoken on Immigration Policy

    It just is broken. No seeming about it. Congress is both unable and unwilling to truly tackle the issue due to impending mid-terms. The President is using it in a twisted hostage scenario and imagines he is winning a propaganda war. People get outraged in the short term and then forget about it. So called reformers talk about how they know we need to fix legal immigration and support reform for appearance reasons but when push comes to shove do nothing. Pedants insist on the rule of law while having no conception of what the law requir
  4. That is neat! I love to perplex my wife in singing hymns in German, but sometimes I just can't find the German versions, and sometimes the German hymnal doesn't have the English hymns. And sometimes there are German hymns that are not found in the English hymnal. Es ist ein Ros Entsprungen comes to mind. It's in the current German hymnbook, and is popular with the German Saints, but I wonder if it will survive "correlation", since the Rose in the title is a symbolic reference to the Virgin Mary. The English title is sometimes given as Lo, How a Rose E'er Blooming. But since the Tabernacle Choir has sung it, perhaps we will find it in the hymnbook when all is said and done:
  5. jkwilliams

    William Smith - A Tragedy of Betrayal

    At least it's an ethos.
  6. Eek!

    Different Degrees of Glory.

    If God is good and God is fair and God is no respecter of persons, then I can't believe heaven is in some ways a hell for most of the people who make it there (and losing - being separated from - someone you love would be a little bit of hell). Here is one possibility: Joseph Smith may have never finished that part of his work. I think he was moving in the direction of something that would have included the possibility of multiple husbands when he was killed. That possibility is suggested in verse 42 of Section 132: "I say unto you, if a man receiveth a wife in the new and everlasting covenant, and if she be with another man, and I have not appointed unto her by the holy anointing, she hath committed adultery and shall be destroyed." The implication is, if it HAD BEEN "appointed undo her by the holy anointing", then it would NOT be adultery for her to be with another man. And we know from the last verse of Section 132 that there was more to come on the subject of plural marriage. Ever wonder what that might be?: "And now, as pertaining to this law, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will reveal more unto you, hereafter; therefore, let this suffice for the present." One of the patterns Joseph Smith seemed to follow was this: First you learn it, then you do it, then you teach it. That is the pattern he followed with plurality of wives. Joseph may have been following a similar pattern regarding plurality of husbands. Presumably he knew about it, because he did it (was married to women who were currently married to other men), but far as I know he never got to the teaching phase. Could plurality of husbands have been one of the ideas that he believed would cause some of his followers to "fly to pieces like glass"? Anyway my main point is that a God who is good and fair and no respecter of persons is not going to have a system that cheats his daughters for the benefit of his sons. And we don't have enough pieces of the puzzle yet to figure it all out, but He does and we can be confident that He already has.
  7. Stargazer

    The Lincoln Hypothesis

    Not quite. "John Kennedy did have a secretary named Evelyn Lincoln (who may or may not have warned him about going to Dallas), but one searches in vain to find a Lincoln secretary named Kennedy. (Lincoln’s White House secretaries were John G. Nicolay and John Hay.)" I suggest a look at Snopes on this. It is interesting, but as you say, coincidences are just that and usually only just that. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/linkin-kennedy/
  8. The Nehor

    William Smith - A Tragedy of Betrayal

    Say what you will about National Socialism but at least they had snappy looking uniforms but that had its own problems.
  9. PacMan

    William Smith - A Tragedy of Betrayal

    Unless it is to disclose illegality, I disagree that a reasonable belief exists to warrant such betrayal. In any event, your comment has no bearing on what I said. If the betrayers didn't exist, then Mormon Leaks would have nothing to publicize. Their reasons (good or bad) do not influence that logic one way or the other.
  10. It will need to be a committee of composers then. I kinda think the Church will have to abandon this particular goal. Rewriting all those hymns into different languages? - a monstrous and almost impossible task. I realize that a few songs have multiple language versions, but trying to write Handel's Messiah, in Japanese, or African dialect? Ouch. Just not an enviable task. That is essentially what they are suggesting by trying to rewrite all these hymns into different languages. I am surprised that it is even being considered. It just doesn't seem practical. I don't think they realize the musical barriers to this task. Now if composers in all the various different countries submit versions of these hymns in their own languages that is the best I think the Church can hope for. But I sincerely doubt that we will see uniform hymns in all the different languages now spoken in the Church. And I kinda think we shouldn't aspire to a goal of that type of uniformity.
  11. The Nehor

    Father's day

    I get that life is not fair but why can’t it be unfair in my favor more often?
  12. jkwilliams

    William Smith - A Tragedy of Betrayal

    For some reason I'm picturing you dressed as Hitler. Not a good look on you.
  13. The Nehor

    William Smith - A Tragedy of Betrayal

    I too was sad that they closed the thread. I had some really good Hitler comparisons I wanted to try out.
  14. Thinking

    William Smith - A Tragedy of Betrayal

    Perhaps you should consider that those who are betraying their confidences are doing so because they believe that it's more important to leak the information than to continue to keep it confidential.
  15. I understand. On the other hand to a kid in Southern California EVERYBODY on TV is from your home town and you might have seen them literally in the grocery store so it ain't no biggie. To us it looks kind of quaint and parochial to see folks get excited about local issues/ celebrities going national, paying money for a tour driving past their houses, etc. Like I said, worlds colliding and the task is to unify those worlds. Not gonna be easy. I was going to do screen shots to contrast all the white blonde kids in the choir VS the images of the brown youth who are members elsewhere in the world in the recent youth devotional. Too much work and then no Utah lifers (not converts) will get it anyway The difference is actually kind of shocking if you want to see it. Just look at the first part of the videos shown and contrast them with the reality of the youth choirs racially and you may see it. https://www.lds.org/media-library/video/special-youth-devotionals?lang=eng
  16. Tacenda

    New Ministering w/youth

    I keep thinking it's because I came out to the bishop. I believe the church really wants to leave people like me out, and hope we go away. But I will text the RS president and see what she says. If that doesn't pan out, I'm going church shopping, or am looking into volunteering in the community some more.
  17. clarkgoble

    The DNA Issue again.

    I think the issue of the 116 pages looms large here. Although to be fair to the counterview, if the 116 pages had discussion of others in the land then wouldn't Joseph and Oliver (or other scribes) have knowledge of that? Wouldn't, in turn, that affect how they discuss native Americans in the region they lived in from the 1820's through Joseph's death? Yet we don't see a lot of evidence of that. While I'm extremely dubious of the great lakes geography model, one thing they do raise is the assumption about how early Saints including Joseph viewed natives of the region. My guess is that discussion of Others also wasn't on the 116 pages. However we should note that the 116 pages aren't Nephi's writing but Mormon's summation of Nephi's historical records. It's quite reasonable that Mormon just didn't mention it, much like Moroni didn't mention it in Ether. As you note in your #2, it's quite plausible Mormon just didn't care. Why wouldn't he care? Presumably because the empty hemisphere model was so alien he didn't even consider it as a possibility. The empty land model of course presupposes a type of "literalist" interpretation that only really arose in the modern era. (Here meaning roughly the post-Cartesian period through the beginning of the 20th century) That in turn arises as Protestant hermeneutics develop in lockstep with hermeneutics of science and hermeneutics of legal texts. Yet all those assumptions about reading texts are novel in the modern era and for the most part alien to the ancient world. It's just that they've become such a part of our culture people don't realize the ways they are reading texts. These could also plausibly be additions at the time of translation as Blake Ostler has suggested. What's most interesting is that this logic presupposes that the text isn't authentically ancient since it demands it accord to how a modern text would be written. So there's a really interesting and obscured element of circular logic to many claims of achronisms.
  18. Thanks, all of this is of interest to me to read. Its a good thing that oath of vengeance was removed (I can see why some took it to heart and would have acted it out themselves). I can’t see where instilling vengeance in member’s hearts would ever be a good thing. Those were different times though, I know.
  19. I’m reminded of a line of dialogue from Buzz Lightyear in “Toy Story”: “You’re mocking me, aren’t you?”
  20. Reminds me of one of my favorite single-panel cartoons... A nerdy-looking guy in a vest and bow tie is standing near a bar facing several big thuggish-looking patrons. His caption..."I must warn you! I am highly trained in the art of sarcasm and derision!"
  21. Nothing in that verse says the unity is ontological. It could just as easily be read nominalistically. Indeed historically that's how it's typically been read. Even Pratt's more Stoic view of the ousia really isn't an ontological unity ala the Trinity but a kind of shared material fluid. Thus it's a common physical substance but not an ontological unity. Now personally I think there is some kind of ontological unity - although I'd favor the Nothing of say Duns Scotus for various reasons. (Mainly dealing with Levinas' view of how God is absolutely other but so too are other minds and thus our own ontological ground) However there's really no textual reason to take that interpretation. I'd not you're misusing hypostasis when you say One God. The traditional formulation, which shifted the normal Roman sense of the terms somewhat, is that there's one ousia but three hypostasis. The hypostasis is thus not shared. My suggestion would be that whenever you read a passage don't assume the way you read it is correct. Rather consider the range of ways that passage could be read. Typically, especially with difficult passages, the text is somewhat vague and thus open to many competing readings.
  22. Does Yeshua visit Paradise? I bet He does. Paradise is essentially the "saved" portion of the spirit world. Those who have died in Christ. They were valiant in life. That is essentially the definition of the celestial kingdom where they are headed. Maybe they are called elohim. We don't know. Mmm. Maybe. That is probably the way the early saints heard it, but it doesn't say "blood atonement." The earth can reference its inhabitants, so I don't have too much problem with that as written. I do feel the words could use some revision, but that's me. I do hear what you are saying. I had more problem with the tune the first couple of times I sang it. And forgiveness is a big part of the atonement as I bet Joseph would tell you if you could talk to him. If Yeshua doesn't forgive us, there is no atonement.
  23. If Happy Jack Wagon’s sarcasm detector isn’t flawed, his comprehension of word definitions is. Sarcasm is a form of derision. Yes, HJW, I was deriding you and others by means of sarcasm in anticipation of your whining and virtue signaling about “Praise to the Man.”
  24. Today I buried and attended a funeral And grof a granl and great friend and a Mighty Man of God. He joined the Church when there were barely 2,000,000 members if not less) in the hole world. However in Georgua in the 60's, barely two or three thousand in the entire State. He helped to build the third Church ever built in the Satate. He was a pioneer in every way. When I let the Army, he was the first face I saw, first hand I shock, and the firest Bishop I had. At that times there were only 4,000,000+ members or less, making us both pioneers o a growing Church. Today, Georgaia numbers 100,00+ and expanding at an lightening place. Due to our Pioneed spirit.
  25. I’ve already disputed your conclusions about what the words are saying. But even so, some prophecies in the scriptures are written as though they had already occurred. It’s called a poetic device. And nobody here has said Joseph was perfect or without fault. I don’t know where you’re getting that. By the way, you’re right when you said a comparable situation to the Expisitor incident doesn’t exist today. Even so, we can discuss it in terms of broad principles. As I said yesterday in another conversation, freedom of the press is not absolute, not even today. There are restrictions pertaining to libel, for example. The remedy for libel in 1840s Nauvoo was to have a libelous press declared a public nuisance and to have it abated. There were legal precedents. If course, that wouldn’t fly today, but as you have intimated, times have changed.
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