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      Contact Us Broken   09/27/2016

      Users, It has come to our attention that the contact us feature on the site is broken.  Please do not use this feature to contact board admins.  Please go through normal channels.  If you are ignored there then assume your request was denied. Also if you try to email us that email address is pretty much ignored.  Also don't contact us to complain, ask for favors, donations, or any other thing that you may think would annoy us.  Nemesis

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  2. So..in all that I have been brought with..though non temple attendee...In The Beginning...what??? I am asking those who are LDS that may think that Adam and Eve are not historical...where is the beginning? Just trying to understand.
  3. Fair enough, thanks for acknowledging.
  4. Thanks, that is important to acknowledge. We put our leaders up on pedestals, not just prophets in an LDS context, but other leaders in the broader culture as well. I remember talking to a family member recently that was so upset about the historians who were revising history about the founding fathers of the USA, those that held slaves and fathered children through slaves. This family member was so angry, I didn't have a chance to even mention that the history is accurate and have a discussion about the myths that we've created around our hero's that in some ways deify our hero's. Hopefully another time with this individual they will be open to a more complicated discussion.
  5. I've read the posts to which I've responded. That is sufficient to the moment. For example, when Duncan said Elder Hafen was the only Church leader he knew of who had addressed the matter of whether homosexuality lasts into the next life, I hastened to point out that others had done so. Again, I've not talked specifically about Kenngo's former stake president, and I really don't have much interest in doing so.
  6. We can’t live other people’s EVENTS But we can live their STORIES Kid in class: “History is BORING” Make it into a movie, and it comes alive
  7. Ah. OK. I hadn't picked up on that. I only knew it was about Kenngo's former stake president. And I don't think I've yet mentioned him specifically. I've only spoken of concepts here, not specifics. I will acknowledge, for the record, that I haven't read every single post on this thread.
  8. Few of us believe Joseph was perfect. It is encouraging that he wasn't, and that God can use imperfect people. Would be a tragic world if that weren't the case. But being used by God that way cleanses us step by step...a refining fire. Did Joseph offend people? Yep. Shock some? Yep. (Prophets in times past have done the same) Was his intent to cause harm to others? I believe his intent was to bless. And sometimes, if we extend someone a pomegranate, all they hear is "grenade"! What is mlik to some is sour milk to others. Which is why looking under the hood at what really drives somebody is more illuminating, in my opinoin, to who they *really* are. Appearances can be deceiving. Scroes of prophets, apostles, and even the Prince of Peace were rejected and killed from peoplel who never learned to judge more righteously. What Samuel learned: "for the Lord seeth not as man seeth, for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart." Sneaky hobbit. :::rimshot:::
  9. Yes, apparently Scott hasn't listened to the interview or even read the article in the SLTrib. It seems to me it would be hard to have an intelligent conversation about a subject matter when you haven't read the material.
  10. Because it feels like you or some others have an aversion to John Dehlin and Mormonstories. And Laurie Lee, Kenngo's ex-Stake President, is being interviewed by JD. I just wish you or USU would at least listen and then form your opinion. Sometimes it takes just knowing someone. But I will refrain from bringing you two up again, I just wish you would at least be openminded to listening. But I will quit wishing.
  11. Isn't she the person being discussed in this thread?
  12. Oh, boy. This gets into the whole question of what "religion" is. Substantive religion, the theory that religion is defined as the belief in the existence supernatural elements (God, spirits, etc) is not really all that useful, but if you're going by that metric, it's in decline. Obviously our doctrine outlines this period of disbelief, and the ultimate triumph of the Gospel though. If you're going by the theory of functional religion, I think it's doing fine. Civic religion in the United States and Canada seems on the rise, though on different "doctrinal" trajectories. Activist religion seems to be doing well with ritualistic protest acting as a proselytizing agent for specific worldviews. Personally, I like a synthesis of the two concepts, that my religion is both a belief in Deity as well as a function of my life and role in the various communities and identities win which I participate.
  13. I don't know who Laurie Lee is. I've never even heard of her. I've never mentioned her in conversation or participated in conversation where she has been the subject. Is there any reason I should have? In short, why are you bringing my name into this?
  14. I don't know if what I envision will ever happen, its impossible to predict the future. I guess if we play the, Joseph did it so it must be ok, game then you have to take the bad with the good and Joseph did a lot of bad as well. I'd prefer just to use the good old revelation doctrine and get some revelation from deity, but that is a rusty tool that rarely gets pulled out of the closet. (pun intended!)
  15. Madmardigan. At one point, he needed to get in touch with his feminine side. Served him well...(along with a daikini baby, and several others). Can't comment on your stake pres when we don't know the why's and the eventual outcomes. Might simply be trying to really know what its like for the other half of us to live in a man's world. You know, spy stuff. Mrs. Doubtfire stuff. Stuff that changes how you view life and others and yourself. We're not qualfied to understand his situation until the height-challenged lady sings (are we sure she's even a lady)? (Most of Shakespeare's actresses weren't actresses at all, but men in drag.)
  16. I know you're wanting this to be about Adam and Eve having been actual people who were the literal first man and woman, but how do you get around the fact that this would have involved incest? That's always bothered me and is why I think they are symbolic, rather than literal.
  17. I really enjoyed the interview as well, and think its very respectful to currently orthodox LDS members. Nothing in that interview that I found would be doctrinally challenging or critical. Best to listen to and get to know people who have experiences like this, that is the way towards understanding and empathy, and hopefully a way for all of us to shed our bias and ignorance.
  18. At first I would disagree and think that it would never happen in a million years, then I remembered that Joseph Smith was sealed to men, so the same sex. I guess like the apologists mention..it's just being sealed to stay together in the eternities as family.
  19. I don't have an answer for this, because it's a determination that's made by local leadership, not by me. But I do know that violation of the law of chastity is among grounds for Church discipline up to and including excommunication. I daresay there are plenty of sexually active gays in the Church whom, for whatever reason, local leadership never excommunicates or for whom the leadership never even gets around to convening disciplinary councils. You can't really go by anecdotes on this sort of thing.
  20. I don't believe Laurie Lee is doing this out of lascivious motives either. I listened to another clip of the interview on MS last night, I keep having to listen over and over again because I fall asleep. She mentions where she came to a point of either ending her life, not in those words, or living authentically finally, once and for all. And she feels like God is behind her 100%, and she is only beholden to Him. She feels like she has been given personal revelation on this, not in these words, again. She wants to be there for her family, right? Better a woman, than dead. Because at first I leaned toward maybe her sacrificing even more by staying a man for her family. But I'm not Laurie Lee, and I don't know how close it got for her to not be able to sustain that kind of life any longer. I think she's paid her dues. BTW, I doubt USU or Scott, or perhaps you, have listened to any of the interviews, hope I'm wrong. That's something Laurie asks for...people to at least inquire or want to know what's going on. So they are informed before having rash judgements.
  21. Adapt to what works best in local circumstances. In Phoenix I found that when working in dense Latino areas (I was Spanish speaking) going door to door in trailer parks and working with part member families and less active families was the best combo. It sounds like service is the best in Russia. I imagine this might have something to do with the odd mix of atheism, Russian Orthodoxy, and mutual suspicion towards Western-based religions. Service is a way of fostering real trust in the community, which is the basis for any meaningful dialogue leading towards conversion.
  22. To be honest, you must acknowledge that your interpretation of the Bible verses you cited depends wholly on the late-20th, early 21st century redefinition of marriage, a redefinition that is not sustained in the Bible and has never been sustained in recorded history until now. And it's not correct to say I "trust fallible men that lead this church." I trust God to do what He said He would do, including revealing His will through servants -- prophets and apostles -- called and ordained to that purpose.
  23. I'm jumping into this thread a little late, but just finished listening to the podcast interview. Things are complicated, and even more complicated than what I'm seeing discussed so far. There are individuals who identify as gender fluid, meaning that they identify sometimes as male and sometimes as female. There is a spectrum with respect to gender identity as well as sexual preference identity. Categorizing people into different boxes is a tendency we have to try and make sense of this world, but it inevitably fails and those on the outside of these categories that we invent, are harmed in the process. The big take away from this interview for me is that we should ultimately respect however someone self identifies. That is the only way forward that feels like it has integrity to me. How does the church manage things like marriage, priesthood, temple work, etc. I think the ultimate solution is to just stop managing it all together. Let people be sealed to whoever they want to be sealed to. Let people identify as whatever gender they want to identify as. Give the priesthood to both genders. Update the tradition about chastity to mean monogamous relationships, not specific to gender or sexual preference. I think this is the path of fairness and the path that we're being called by divine inspiration to go towards.
  24. A great way to deny one's basest self would be to not lob bitter attacks at the gay and transgendered community, even if one holds religious disagreements with their choices.
  25. And what could better capture the fall of mankind than their story of loss of innocence and THEN as you so briefly but eloquently point out, the anguish, the unspeakable anguish, of the loss of a child- said to be perhaps the worst mental pain mankind can endure- and then to know that the killer was your other son! What do you do? We have children who go astray sometimes, and we love them, sometimes we can love them back into the fold, or into the family circle and overcome the alienation But under these circumstances? What events could better capture the plight of mankind and the fall from innocence this story portrays? And as you say, I think it is essential to think in terms of these events AS stories, and as metaphors we can take into our lives. Events are abstract- "Earthquake in Turkey Kills Hundreds" - we might pause for a moment and think "Oh! those poor people!" and get on with our day. But then we read the next day of an individual with a name digging through rubble and finding his daughter- and we are all uplifted. But what of the hundreds of nameless souls digging through the rubble who did NOT find their loved ones? That is where the anguish is. Each of those is a true event that "really happened" which caused untold- literally- human agony, but we don't know about it or feel about it until it is a "story". One can imagine a news editor saying to a reporter "But where is the STORY?" Unrecorded pain changes no one else's life. But when it becomes a "story" - that is what captures human interest. That is the power of parables which everyone knows "never happened" yet the truth- and I mean that word "truth" - is, that parables happen every day in the world around us, and we often live them ourselves- repeatedly! So where is the line between "what really happened" and the IMPORTANCE of what really happened captured in a story? Art imitates life and life imitates art, but events do not become memorable until they become art. It is the images we remember. We may not remember or care about the politics or the immediate events which caused the Berlin wall to be erected, but that wall as portrayed in art, in photos, in stories of bravery and escape, will be remembered forever. Beliefs about events change people- events themselves do not change lives unless we are directly impacted by the events and have our own "story" to tell. Think of 9-11. We cannot fathom the depth of human tragedy caused by that event, but what we really remember is how it related to us personally, AND the stories which came out afterward. We might remember where we were when we found out- we might remember watching TV and the horror we felt and then the rush of patriotism which followed for a short while, but soon forgotten. But it is the images which stick. It is the art which etches it into our memories. It is the story of the passengers on the plane rushing the attackers, knowing that doing so was suicidal, and yet the did it to save others. Those people truly gave it all for others, but knowing that their lives were already over, they dedicated their deaths to saving others. THAT is what we remember, the story. There is no human interest until it is created by a story which etches itself into human consciousness.
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