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  2. Bernard Gui

    Come follow me

    Reminds me of the old Family Home Evening manuals we used to use. I thought they were great and missed them. Glad to see them back again. Live long enough and things come around again. Sister Gui and I plan to use them to replace the hour lost from the block on Sunday.
  3. Hamba Tuhan

    Come follow me

    We struggle to get through a portion of a Sunday school lesson now as it is. The more people who are eager to share their personal experiences, the quicker the lesson goes.
  4. Hamba Tuhan

    Evolution

    Now you're conflating dinosaurs evolving into lizards and birds with the processes of evolution in general. We can observe the evolution of bacteria, for example, over just a few years. You may relate these concepts (evolution and the age of the earth) in your head, but they are not coterminous, and one is not necessarily a proxy for the other. On the issue of 7,000 years divided into seven 1,000-year periods, check standard Bible commentaries. There you'll find that the Hebrews used a number of figures as 'round' or 'indeterminate' quantities. Thousand was one of these, meaning a very long period of time or a great immensity. I know we think we don't do things like that anymore, but hundreds (!) of times I've heard native English speakers say something like, 'There are a couple of people in the room', when, in fact, there might be three or five people in the room, and they're not even together. Couple in contemporary English has become one of those indeterminate numbers that doesn't carry its literal meaning: two people or things of the same sort considered together. If, for example, I asked you to 'give me a couple of examples', would you automatically understand that I'd asked for exactly two examples of the same sort, or would you understand this request to be the equivalent of 'give me a few examples' of possibly various sorts? The revelation in the D&C explicitly states its intertextuality with Revelation, which is filled with the usage of round, indeterminate numbers, often intended to convey immensity or a long time. Beyond all this, the Latter-day Saints had canonised scripture (Abraham) that taught us the relativity of time decades before Einstein.
  5. Calm

    Evolution

    The Bible Dictionary is not considered doctrinal or official by leadership: ”Bible Dictionary This dictionary provides a concise collection of definitions and explanations of Bible topics. It is based primarily on the biblical text, supplemented by information from the other standard works. A variety of doctrinal, cultural, and historical subjects are treated, and a short summary is included for each book of the Bible. Many of the entries draw on the work of Bible scholars and are subject to reevaluation as new research or revelation comes to light. This dictionary is provided to help your study of the scriptures and is not intended as an official statement of Church doctrine or an endorsement of the historical and cultural views set forth” https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/introduction.html?lang=eng
  6. tulip

    Come follow me

    The Sunday school teachers are going to struggle to teach the small outline. Not enough information to teach for 50 minutes.
  7. Hamba Tuhan

    Come follow me

    I think you need to check your manual again. The idea is to study the material during the week before the corresponding lesson is given at church. This could certainly be in a family home evening, but it needn't be. And if it's in a FHE, it could be on Sunday or any other day that works for you.
  8. Hamba Tuhan

    Come follow me

    Yep. I have found repeatedly that revelation is most likely to come when we're already on the move, doing something, getting our feet wet. People who wait for God to speak before taking action mostly just hear silence. The Spirit is expert at guiding a moving object.
  9. Rain

    In case it turns out you are wrong...

    I try to understand what God wants for me and wants me to do. I try to be where he wants me to be. If, when trying to follow God, I don't get it right and he consigns me to hell that would be a cruel joke and makes me think I would prefer to live in hell than to live with someone who would treat his child this way.
  10. clarkgoble

    Come follow me

    I'm a bit nervous. It seems clear the idea is to have FHE lessons on Sunday after Church and reteach the lesson. As a senior primary teacher though having only 20 minutes to teach the lesson is going to be pretty hard. Also I'm worried since our Stake has staggered the hours so that the next ward is coming into the church right as primary is switching. Sounds like pandemonium guaranteed. That said, the lessons are more just very, very vague outlines with a few ideas. Lots of room for teachers to do what they want. Of course the traditional problem is that while that's great for many teachers, many people need structure and will really struggle with this. BTW - the manuals have been in the Gospel Library app for some time now.
  11. Rain

    In case it turns out you are wrong...

    My husband does semi conductor circuit design. He kind of laughed. He said some of quantum electrodynamics works, but there is some real crazy quantum electrodynamics that they are not sure about yet.
  12. cksalmon

    Is the Bible self-authenticating?

    Great question. Hmm. Let me think about that.
  13. clarkgoble

    Evolution

    There's definitely been some unfortunate manuals though the years. However that gets into the normative vs. descriptive senses of doctrine I've brought up before. Heaven knows manuals are very imperfect. While they're useful for deciding sociologically what Church teaching is, I'm not sure they're good for discerning what is defensible doctrine tied to revelation. the Bible Dictionary was largely written by McConkie and reflects his theological views. It's extremely dated and really needs a significant rewrite. I've honestly been surprised they haven't done it yet. Lots of problematic parts. However I don't think you can necessarily say what is contemporary orthodoxy on the basis of the Bible Dictionary. No death before the fall is, as you note, a problematic claim. It was largely introduced by JFS & BRM on the basis of Seventh Day Adventist apologetic. There are lots of problems with the idea not the least of which that scripture says Adam was cast out of Eden to the lone and dreary wilderness not that Eden became the lone and dreary wilderness. Indeed Eden was still there so God had an angel guarding the entrance. So I don't think NDBF is scriptural in the least. Proponents almost always push it by quoting 20th century figures who believed in it. To me the better scriptural reading is that there was a terrestrial world where Adam and Eve lived and they were cast out into an already existing telestial world which is this one. The goal is to ascend back to the still existing Eden as part of a heavenly ascent. The two oft quoted verses, 2 Ne 2:22 & Moses 6:48 don't remotely teach no death before the fall or the fall of all Eden. The death of Moses 6:48 is contextually clearly the death of Adam and his descendants but says nothing about it in general.
  14. clarkgoble

    Evolution

    As others note D&C 77 doesn't say the earth is 7000 years old but rather was an explanation of the seven seals in Revelation. It doesn't say the earth is only that old but that the "book which John saw" "contains...the hidden things of [god's] economy concerning this earth during the seven thousand years of its continuance or its temporal existence." So in other words it's an explanation about John's revelation which deals with a portion of the earth's history. It makes zero claims about the age of the earth nor that there was no death before the fall. It's from W. W. Phelps in a letter to Joseph's brother William in 1844. It read Christ kept his first estate-Lucifer lost his by offering to save men in their sins on the honor of a God, or on his father's honor.-Christ hated sin, and loved righteousness, therefore he was anointed with holy oil in heaven, and crowned in the midst of brothers and sisters, while his mother stood with approving virtue, and smiled upon a Son that kept the faith as the heir of all things! In fact the Jews thought so much of his coronation among Gods and Goddesses; Kings and Queens of heaven, that they broke over all restraints and actually began to worship the "Queen of heaven," according to Jeremiah. Well, now, Brother William, when the house of Israel begin to come into the glorious mysteries of the kingdom, and find that Jesus Christ, whose goings forth, as the prophets said, have been from of old, from eternity: and that eternity, agreeably to the records found in the catacombs of Egypt, has been going on in this system, (not this world) almost two thousand five hundred and fifty five millions of years: and to know at the same time, that deists, geologists and others are trying to prove that matter must have existed hundreds of thousands of years;-it almost tempts the flesh to fly to God, or muster faith like Enoch to be translated and see and know as we are seen and known! The big debate is over what "system and not the world" means. McConkie, going by memory, took it to mean the solar system and not earth. He was a no death before the fall kind of guy. Others note that 2.5 billion years is near the rise of eukaryote cells. (Technically 2.1 - 1.8 but people making this argument usually suggest the capture of mitochondria was complete by then but that the evolution into modern life likely happened before) Others noted photosynthesis evolves around 2.6 billion. Finally critics note that the figure almost certainly comes from gematria (numeric calculations in Judaic texts) and is more tied to 1 day = 1000 years calculated out. I'm partial to the quote myself, although it's not at all clear what Phelps is talking about. But it seems tied to something going on during the Abraham work. And of course the 1 day = 1000 years is in Abraham 3. Edit: weirdly the forum won't let me post the full quote. Edit2: finally got it in but in a weird font.
  15. The Nehor

    Come follow me

    The bulk of what I have so far is do not be afraid to experiment and figure out what works for your family. If something does not work try something else. Also part of it. Do not spend time thinking about if you are going to do it. Focus on how. If you are not sure how just jump in and improvise.
  16. cksalmon

    Is the Bible self-authenticating?

    Did believing it make it true for you, M? 😎🚬
  17. mfbukowski

    Is the Bible self-authenticating?

    missed it, just trying to help
  18. mfbukowski

    Another Crazy Thread From Cdowis

    As usual I never said that. Show me exactly where I said it was "objectively better"? The whole notion is absurd. "Objectively better" is actually a contradiction in terms. Better by definition is in the eye of the beholder Yet contextually there is wide spread agreement about what is "good" in general terms. Most people do not endorse murdering people for fun. But if there was such a community, the larger community would enforce their own values using force. That's why there are wars. Disagreement about what is "better" That alone proves there is no "objective better" This world is made of Republicans and Communists, pacifists and freedom fighters and one man's patriot is another man's terrorist. Please do not invent things I never said and them attribute them to me. There are others here who do the same thing due to inability to read clearly "Better"? yes of course that is my opinon which coheres with that of many many people. "Objectively better" ? Self contradictory
  19. mfbukowski

    Evidence for the Book of Abraham

    Pardon a stupid question from someone totally uneducated in these matters but I noticed that the Canaanites here appear to be lighter skinned than the Egyptians- where did we get the idea that they would be darker skinned? Or was that just in my uneducated brain??
  20. hope_for_things

    Another Crazy Thread From Cdowis

    While it certainly makes sense that some paradigms are better than others, we’ve agreed that this sphere of religious truth is squarely relative and subjective, so you can’t also claim that Mormonism is objectively better than other paradigms. You like the theology around trying to become like God. Some other person likes the idea of infinite reincarnations. I like Michelangelo’s David, another person likes a work by Jackson Pollock. It’s all subjective, no theology is measurably better than another. Who’s to say.
  21. mfbukowski

    Is the Bible self-authenticating?

    (He's Orthodox not RC....)
  22. Sophists ("a person who reasons with clever but fallacious arguments") don't really do well in the U.S. legal system, which is structured to be adversarial. I usually have an opposing attorney who scrutinizes my arguments for flaws and fallacies. So no, I don't think I'm a sophist. But I don't have pretensions about being Socrates, either. Thanks, -Smac
  23. Storm Rider

    And now, Gina Colvin faces a Disciplinary Council.

    I appreciate your honesty and willingness to share. The ability to question oneself is often delayed or ignored in favor of other self-serving emotions. I don't have any answers for you other than I have learned that I am very, very human. I doubt the arm of flesh and I am willing to accept that mysteries and the unknown will exist for us here. For me the church, the gospel of Exaltation work because of what I compare to the teachings of other churches and faiths. Nothing fits as well as the Restored gospel. Having said that, I also know that many things don't work well in the organization for many people. I know that we can learn from other churches and faiths. I love the worship and reverence found within Islam; I deeply appreciate the wealth of spiritual teachings found within Catholicism; I like the comradery that I find in many other Christian churches. I do not fear the truth or that truth can be painful and hard. Just keeping kneeling before God and let him guide your steps and your thoughts.
  24. mfbukowski

    Is the Bible self-authenticating?

    Could be- I am not sure what your point is. Obviously they had no criteria for determining what was a "good" paradigm which just reinforces my point as far as I can see that YOU should decide your own paradigm and not listen to others. For me the prime directive is to follow what is "good" by your own standards and stick to your own principles. You are the one who wants you to pick an external source to judge which paradigm is best. I pick my own and suicide is not an option nor does it describe my idea of a "good religion" If president Nelson came to my house and told me to commit suicide I would throw him out and create my own church.
  25. Ouagadougou

    Evolution

    I'm sorry, but our species (Homo sapiens) have been around MUCH longer than just 7,000 years. "Our species is an African one: Africa is where we first evolved, and where we have spent the majority of our time on Earth. The earliest fossils of recognizably modern Homo sapiens appear in the fossil record at Omo Kibish in Ethiopia, around 200,000 years ago. Although earlier fossils may be found over the coming years, this is our best understanding of when and approximately where we originated. Learn more about Early Human Milestones According to the genetic and paleontological record, we only started to leave Africa between 60,000 and 70,000 years ago. Around 20,000 years ago a small group of these Asian hunters headed into the face of the storm, entering the East Asian Arctic during the Last Glacial Maximum." https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/human-journey/
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