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  2. Lexical Duplicity and Trust in Communication

    I think you have unfortunately hit on what the future might hold for those on the fringe. Upon reading you post I clearly saw individuals doing exactly what you have stated. They have found their new drug and are very unwilling to see anything that conflicts with their path. And they accuse us of the same thing over and over and over again without ever looking in the mirror. They are so concerned about us they have forgotten to see their own selves.
  3. Lexical Duplicity and Trust in Communication

    Does this mean that Dehlinites do now or will constitute a Fifth Column inside the Church, for whatever purpose? And will future demographers take account of the actual and pretend Mormons within the LDS Church? With graphs of each?
  4. Today
  5. While apologists take different views obviously, I think they long thought elements of his environment were in the Book of Mormon. Just that there wasn’t cribbing. That was never thought of the Bible which has always been seen as different by its nature.
  6. One true church - Virtue or Vice?

    If one believes Daniel 2:44 that God will establish a kingdom, it seems reasonable to conclude that truth will be found in that kingdom. Anything outside that kingdom that rejects the truth that is found in that kingdom has to be false. That kingdom that God would establish would be the one true kingdom. If this not the case, why would God bother establishing such a kingdom when it does not matter anyway? One can find just as much truth outside it and one does not need to be a part of that kingdom?
  7. One true church - Virtue or Vice?

    A reasonable observer would notice that the scriptures DO in show that God sanctioned polygamy in certain circumstances. A reasonable observer would have have a very difficult time finding even one scripture that shows that God would sanction other sexual unions like gay marriage. With the development of AI and sex robots in society, eventually AI will be merged with sex robots. I predict that one day society will accept marriage between humans and these robots. I also predict that some churches will accept these unions. It sounds crazy but no more crazy than the idea of gay marriage 30 years ago. Very few people considered gay marriage in any serious way 30 years ago. I believe I will be right on this one.
  8. "Truth" is contextual in statements to a specific community. I have talked about that so much I will just reference sources on that. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/truth-deflationary/ In my opinion that is the only definition of truth that can be justified. So yes we agree if the sister is talking about a vague source of energy, that is misleading in an LDS context and therefore not a "true" statement. False impressions are a hazard of life and we all have them constantly. So it's nice that we see that and rather disgusting that Dehlin recommends that, but there is nothing much that can be done about it rather than feel disgusted at such a person. C'est la vie. Not much to say about it. People do disgusting things and talking about it doesn't make much difference. I suppose if more folks thought it was disgusting, it might make a difference. So in my infinite wisdom I shall allow the thread to continue, but don't know that there is much more here for me to say. I am sure some will be pleased.
  9. https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/05/scriptural-text-for-visions-added-to-pearl-of-great-price?lang=eng "During the April 3 Saturday afternoon session of conference, President N. Eldon Tanner, first counselor in the First Presidency, read the following statement: (See page 19.) “At a meeting of the Council of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve held in the Salt Lake Temple on March 25, 1976, approval was given to add to the Pearl of Great Price the following two revelations: “First, a vision of the celestial kingdom, given to Joseph Smith the Prophet, in the Kirtland [Ohio] Temple, on January 21, 1836, which deals with the salvation of those who die without a knowledge of the gospel. “And second, a vision given to President Joseph F. Smith in Salt Lake City, Utah, on October 3, 1918, showing the visit of the Lord Jesus Christ in the spirit world and setting forth the doctrine of the redemption of the dead. “It is proposed that we sustain and approve this action and adopt these revelations as part of the standard works of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” The proposal was unanimously accepted..." So was there any similar proposal about the footnotes/JST in specific or the updated scriptures in general? The Bible Dictionary at the very least, included in every quad and Bible, doesn't appear to be considered canon, imo. "This dictionary provides a concise collection of definitions and explanations of Bible topics. It is based primarily on the biblical text, supplemented by information from the other standard works. A variety of doctrinal, cultural, and historical subjects are treated, and a short summary is included for each book of the Bible. Many of the entries draw on the work of Bible scholars and are subject to reevaluation as new research or revelation comes to light. This dictionary is provided to help your study of the scriptures and is not intended as an official statement of Church doctrine or an endorsement of the historical and cultural views set forth." https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/introduction.html?lang=eng "Although not the official Bible of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the JSToffers many interesting insights and is an invaluable aid to biblical interpretation and understanding. It is a most fruitful source of useful information for the student of the scriptures. It is likewise a witness for the divine calling and ministry of the Prophet Joseph Smith." https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/joseph-smith-translation?lang=eng
  10. I don't remember what happened when sec 138 was originally added to the PoGP. I remember when it happened and buying the new insets to stick in my scriptures still I got one with them printed already.... What was the process of canonizing those? Has it been mentioned in the thread yet? "In 1976] two items of revelation were added. In 1979 these two items were removed from the Pearl of Great Price and placed in the Doctrine and Covenants, where they now appear as sections 137 and 138” (Pearl of Great Price, introductory note)." https://www.lds.org/manual/the-pearl-of-great-price-student-manual/the-pearl-of-great-price?lang=eng
  11. Active on the outside, inactive on the inside

    The problem with "a carbon copy" is that it is identical. However, the differences are far more extensive than "superficial." For one thing, the endowment ceremony itself is taken very heavily directly from Scripture (the Creation and Garden stories in Genesis and the Book of Moses), and we have discussed many times on this board the antique parallels of washing, anointing, clothing, and naming with the same actions in Hindu puja, in royal coronations (including Elizabeth II) and in the Bible. The style of robe and the oaths and covenants entered into are even closer at the annual Islamic Hajj in Mecca. The late Professor Mervin B. Hogan of the Univ of Utah wrote extensively on Mormon temple rites as compared to the Masonic rites, since he had intimate knowledge of both, and he concluded that they are not identical. That does not mean that there are not similarities: See especially Michael Homer, “‘Similarity of Priesthood in Masonry: The Relationship Between Freemasonry and Mormonism,” Dialogue, 27/3 (Fall 1994), 1-113, online at https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V27N03_15.pdf .
  12. Lexical Duplicity and Trust in Communication

    We all mislead, misdirect, or hide truth from others. Dehlin, being human, has not done anything that we each have not done in other venues and at other times. The difference I see is that he teaches people to withhold the truth and encourages them to stop growing in order that they can continue to follow after him and his gospel of "dead end" rather than actually engaging in a pursuit for the truth. That sin lies on his head and it is not one that I have committed....yet. I pray I never follow after that course of action.
  13. One true church - Virtue or Vice?

    How is "one true church" very different from "only true and living church?" The two seem to be saying the same thing.
  14. I'd be very interested in a citation to that noteworthy event, if it occurred. Canon, but not Scripture? Did I understand you right here, Bob?
  15. They do say that "perception is everything," and this appears to be what you are saying. However, making reality a mere matter of perception is illogical at best and irresponsible at worst. Most Mormons have never used the word "canon" and have no idea what it is. Some of them do occasionally think of the introductions and chapter headings as authoritative Scripture. What they may think of the JST footnotes and endnotes yet remains to be examined by poll. My experience is that it seldom comes up to be used, but when it does I do not find anyone treating it as official Scripture (maybe because hardly anyone comments on that aspect of the footnote -- they simply read it and go on, without further discussion). In any case, the JST footnotes have only been in LDS Scriptures since 1979, so that only the younger generation has seen it as a normal concomitant of their Scriptures. If that is the case for you, that might explain why you give it such an unquestioned position of authority.
  16. This is hardly a new phenomenon. The polygamists inside the church we're constantly rationalizing their answers in order to convince their local priesthood leadership to give them Temple recommends. Nearly every change in the temple questions was occasioned buy these rationalizations. Dehlin really is Despicable, isn't he?
  17. Right. Which is why I had the talk I mentioned above with my daughter and said that the problem is when people use it as the only dictator that matters.
  18. Agreed. This one litmus experience must be considered in concert with so many other important variables - variables that could well override the fact that the young man did not serve a mission. And I too would rest easier knowing my two daughters were dating RMs. I recognize, however, this is reduced to a game of behavioral statistics & probabilities - hardly the highest standard for picking a mate.
  19. Well no, it won't. And for various reasons, not least of which is the fact that Mr Dr Dehlin's friends adamantly insist that there is no lying involved. Which raises the question: Are they using some private definition of "lying," or have they convinced themselves that there's nothing dishonest about his technique? And the next question it raises is this: To what extent are they using his technique in this conversation? Because that, in my view, is the real issue here: the extent to which that kind of lexical duplicity undermines trust. Sure, but that's not the kind of thing I'm thinking about. When a Latter-day Saint bears her testimony of God the Eternal Father, it is generally understood in the Church that she is saying that she believes that God is an actual personal being who is the actual father of our spirit selves. If she really means that she thinks that there might be some vague source of energy out there somewhere - and she doesn't spell that out - then she has left her audience with a false impression. And if she intentionally keep that redefinition of terms private, then she is committing the kind of lexical duplicity I'm talking about. Amen!
  20. One true church - Virtue or Vice?

    1- please find me anything on lds.org referring to the church as the "one true church". "Only true and living church"- yes of course but that is very different. 2- Please find me anything on lds.org which says Are these common beliefs in certain geographical areas near a large body of salt water in the west-central portion of the United States? Yes. Are they common in other areas? Not that I am aware of. I have never seen a sense of superiority or the taking of church authority without question a mistrust of science shunning of family members intentional ignorance of broader religious scholarship- in fact I have seen such knowledge being praised hyperjudgemental people.
  21. Lexical Duplicity and Trust in Communication

    Short answer: we aren't. I don't think you are wrong to harbour suspicions once someone has publicly endorsed Dr Dehlin's Patent Remedy for Tricky Temple Recommend Interviews, but there are a number of things that trip my suspicion metre, and this is just one of them. After all, the lot of you are anonymous to me. Exactly. Dishonesty in temple recommend interviews takes many forms. When I was last serving in the bishopric, I interviewed a sister one afternoon. She gave all the right answers, but I was certain that she was being dishonest. Not because I knew anything but because of how her answers made me feel. I actually asked some very specific follow-up questions just to a) let her know that I had concerns and b) give her every opportunity to be honest with me. Nothing. So I signed her recommend. My signature did not guarantee her worthiness (and in fact I immediately shared my concerns with the bishop both for his own information and also so that he could give a heads-up to the stake presidency member who would conduct the next interview), but it did signify to both her and God that she had vouched for her worthiness to a man authorised to seek her word on the matter. Three months later she left her husband and moved in with her boyfriend. I suspect many who are less than honest in their interviews either don't really believe in a Maker or have convinced themselves that He's on their side. I also suspect they'll be surprised someday, but that remains to be seen.
  22. New Narrative History - Chapter 1

    So who are you saying was dishonest in the past, HFT?
  23. Lexical Duplicity and Trust in Communication

    Excellent post. I concur 100%. The way I see it, in a TR interview a bishop or stake president should be made aware of what the true state of a member’s testimony might be. For instance, if the individual being interviewed believes the Book of Mormon isn’t historical but thinks it’s still spiritually beneficial as a work of fiction, the leaders should be made aware of it. Or if a member can say they sustain the leaders of the Church because they feel it’s their obligation to do so, but they also simultaneously harbor a lot of resentment toward the leaders because of their stances on certain controversial issues, this should come out into the open as well. All possible care should be taken to avoid even the very beginnings of ‘wolf in sheep’s clothing syndrome.’
  24. I think the reason I did and would care most about a man having gone on a mission for the full time prior to marriage is that it showed he probably could be very close roommates with someone he hadn't grown up with without going insane. Living with roommates usually where you can take off whenever you care to just isn't even close to marriage. Being locked into a companionship is closer. Everything else that a mission could probably tell me about would also probably be evident over time as I talked to him (whether or not he was committed to his covenants, how comfortable he was with scripture study, how he approached doctrine and history, how comfortable he was with variations on the theme of faithfulness). And given how I have always been aware that a mission doesn't guarantee those attributes and skills I would like to see in my spouse or the spouses of my children and grandchildren, friends, and neighbours, total strangers, at best a mission tells me there is a greater likelihood at seeing such...but in no way should looking for them and other desirables be skipped just because "mission" is present on a resume.
  25. Thomas S Monson cars

    A couple oth things. First, just as with most persons, they come into money from Parents. Then of course their is the most common way, and that being income. In the case of the late President Monson, he worked in a profession, then became a General Authority. General Authorities such as the Presiding Bishopric, other full time GA's and most especially Apostles and Prophets or President, are not "paid ministers" in the strictest sense. They are "the officers, and administration for a world wide orginazation. An organization that has a responsibility to it's members, but also is engaged in world wide charities that help the lives of millions who are not members. They are full time employees of the Church. President Monson, at his age, and with his salary and book royalties, at the age of 90, would have easily amassed 12 million dollars in net worth. But, my guess you are not looking for this as an answer? So, what are you fishing for?
  26. But that's the problem. Crucial indicators go relatively unaddressed. I remember speaking with a bishop at BYU when I attended way back when. I had questions about a girl I was very interested in though she had a "checkered" past. His advice was to dispense with investigating her past and instead focus on my impressions about her "present". He commented that were his past to be scrutinized obsessively to the exclusion of his "present", his wife wouldn't have married him. He challenged me to take a look at the woman now. In her words & actions does she evidence a desire to serve Christ? Her fellowman? Was she kind? Did she attend church? You'll never hear the YW's program say in casual conversation, "If he doesn't evidence a love for his fellowman then he's out". IMO, that's one of the reasons why our own divorce stats sometimes rival that of the non-Mormon pop. It's too much about form over substance as an indicator of a successful marriage.
  27. Uh oh. Big words. I suppose "lying" won't do, huh? But where is there an objective standard whereby we can measure if "lexical duplicity" logically = "lying" and what constitutes a lie within that context? Different strokes for different folks I suppose on which we get to choose. What is a "full tithe payer"? What is one's "increase"? Does that include social security since that is "already money I paid into the system?" What about taxes on wars one is opposed to ? Should one tithe on funds one has no choice to choose to pay? Is a war one opposes included in one's "increase" so in addition to the money being removed from one's estate involuntarily ("stolen"? ) one should pay tithing as if the money was NOT "removed involuntarily" from one's "increase" So how does "lexical duplicity" work in these cases? If one questions these things or pays tithing on one's net - as determined by the payer alone, is that "honest" or does it violate that provision of the recommend interview as well? How often can one have family arguments and still be worthy? Never? If one gives a second glance to a sexy billboard does that violate the law of chastity? How about sexual "self stimulation" (since the m-word is evil hereabouts )? Are there any bounds at all within marriage which one can violate sexually? I think this is a nice thought and reminder that we should do a lot of self-examination before a temple recommend interview. Thanks for that! And I cannot stand JD. But as a practical problem for public consideration and who is the judge and who draws the lines, honestly I think it is not really something anyone but the individual can decide where there are no objective standards for any of this. There are no answers anyone else can give you in these areas of self-examination. So in issues like this, though I detest Mr Dehlin, I think it is clearly a case that if one lies, that is on the individual. But man, I would not want to face my maker with that on my conscience for him to see instantly.
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